<script data-pm-proxy="intercept"></script><?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" version="2.0" xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd" xmlns:googleplay="http://www.google.com/schemas/play-podcasts/1.0"><channel><title><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy]]></title><description><![CDATA[I write on philosophy. My essays are on a wide range of subjects, although mainly on the philosophy of science.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com</link><image><url>https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!HEb-!,w_256,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F207c2bb6-1471-4254-a9dd-30253890826d_1280x1280.png</url><title>Paul Austin Murphy&apos;s Philosophy</title><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com</link></image><generator>Substack</generator><lastBuildDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2026 17:39:58 GMT</lastBuildDate><atom:link href="/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"/><copyright><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></copyright><language><![CDATA[en]]></language><webMaster><![CDATA[paulaustinmurphy@substack.com]]></webMaster><itunes:owner><itunes:email><![CDATA[paulaustinmurphy@substack.com]]></itunes:email><itunes:name><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></itunes:name></itunes:owner><itunes:author><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></itunes:author><googleplay:owner><![CDATA[paulaustinmurphy@substack.com]]></googleplay:owner><googleplay:email><![CDATA[paulaustinmurphy@substack.com]]></googleplay:email><googleplay:author><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></googleplay:author><itunes:block><![CDATA[Yes]]></itunes:block><item><title><![CDATA[Does Fire Burn? Relativism and Foundational Facts]]></title><description><![CDATA[Fire burns skin. If relativism were correct, some cultures wouldn't believe that. All cultures do. Is "fire burns" a Moorean truth?]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/does-fire-burn-relativism-and-foundational</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/does-fire-burn-relativism-and-foundational</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2026 12:24:25 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!_dUZ!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!_dUZ!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!_dUZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!_dUZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!_dUZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F0a0c181f-83d0-4d68-a69f-a0aa7e35d9bd_871x577.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Image by ChatGPT, after a prompt by the writer.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>All philosophers must have had their Moorean moments. It didn&#8217;t follow from this that they then became champions of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22common+sense+philosophy%22&amp;sca_esv=bb7afd09d3b0f8fc&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6-r_a_mNjR0cbLl4RUcT8rp2yixA%3A1780408284504&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=3N8eavL4GdSehbIP4pOJsAc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAah7t7Bqb8cUp5Lkf7YbWJqQZrNODeNL7&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjy1uTa2eiUAxVUT0EAHeJJAnYQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22common+sense+philosophy%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhkiY29tbW9uIHNlbnNlIHBoaWxvc29waHkiMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IiglQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBgQGgAYEBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKbAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH1wWyBwMwLjG4B5sBwgcDNC0xyAcUgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;common sense philosophy&#8221;</a>. This simply means that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Moorean+facts%22&amp;sca_esv=bb7afd09d3b0f8fc&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6t1fM6nTH_7ETpdZoHwIzy0DsW1w%3A1780408327100&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=B-Aeat_GA82dhbIP393zyQg&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAah7uF-DGbCbdNiso7Kd0mps570qZmxD6&amp;ved=0ahUKEwif5o7v2eiUAxXNTkEAHd_uPIkQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Moorean+facts%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig8iTW9vcmVhbiBmYWN0cyIyBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYFhgeGAoyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVImxVQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBfKABfKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaAChwGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7UCsgcDMC4xuAeHAcIHAzItMcgHB4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;Moorean facts&#8221;</a><strong> </strong>need to be confronted. (The original Moorean fact: <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Moorean+fact%3A+%22I+have+two+hands.%22&amp;sca_esv=37ec142c46dae260&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n49I3-9fB26xl0CexRWYjx1wVsCrA%3A1780362842134&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Wi4eaobjBezQhbIPrN-4mQE&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAah48au-BJWkrFlHO2__Z5x5PttYcsBgG&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiG-Ji2sOeUAxVsaEEAHawvLhMQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Moorean+fact%3A+%22I+have+two+hands.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiFNb29yZWFuIGZhY3Q6ICJJIGhhdmUgdHdvIGhhbmRzLiIyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FSOEQUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAV2gAV2qAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJsmAMAkgcDMC4xoAf7AbIHAzAuMbgHbMIHAzMtMcgHCYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;I have two hands.&#8221;</a>) The philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Jeremy+Stangroom&amp;sca_esv=37ec142c46dae260&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7PxFNAD4512A1UTw7Lzbr9aWCSiQ%3A1780362972854&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=3C4eaq_zMYvShbIP7PmB2Q8&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAah487DXphS1AgHxAJkyDpL0T8xijEFpD&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiv0cP0sOeUAxULaUEAHex8IPsQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Jeremy+Stangroom&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBKZXJlbXkgU3Rhbmdyb29tMgQQIxgnMgoQIxiABBiKBRgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRhDMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYFhgeGAoyBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBEiZOVAAWNkycAB4AJABAJgBa6ABhQmqAQQxNS4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIQoALzCcICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgINEC4YgAQYigUYQxixA8ICEBAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAg4QLhiABBiKBRiRAhjJA8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJIDwgIREC4YgAQYigUYkQIYsQMYyQPCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAggQLhixAxiABMICBRAAGIAEwgIFEC4YgATCAgcQABiABBgKwgIFEAAY7wWYAwCSBwQxNS4xoAfk6QKyBwQxNS4xuAfzCcIHBjItMTUuMcgHUoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Jeremy Stangroom</a> has a Moorean moment in the following passage:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;As we move through our daily lives, we rarely question the epistemological status of those things we take to be more than just probably true: walls are solid; fire burns; knives cut; jumping off a cliff will cause serious injury; it hurts to be hit with a rock than a violet; rain is wet; heat cooks food; aeroplanes fly because engineers designed them according to various physical laws (not magic); there is no little gremlin inside a radio set; and so on.&#8221;</p></div><p>Stangroom uses the words &#8220;we rarely question the epistemological status of these things&#8221;. G.E. Moore&#8217;s position was that we should accept them even after philosophical questioning.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><h4>The Status of Moorean Facts</h4><p>It&#8217;s of course <em>a fact</em> that these supposed Moorean facts can be philosophically questioned. But that&#8217;s not the issue here. We need to know what status they have, and what the consequences of that acceptance are.</p><p>We may readily believe that all these Moorean facts are accepted (or believed) in order to survive. However, accepting that walls are solid or that fires burn may be useful, but it&#8217;s hardly a philosophical position. Indeed, it&#8217;s not even a scientific position. Science may have a position on<strong> </strong>solidity,<strong> </strong>but not really on walls and whether we should walk into them.</p><p>Similarly, &#8220;rain is wet&#8221; isn&#8217;t really a scientific statement. The study of rain belongs to meteorology and atmospheric science, the study of liquidity to fluid mechanics, and the nature of wetness to psychology and neuroscience. Thus, &#8220;rain is wet&#8221; isn&#8217;t equivalent to &#8220;water is H&#8322;O&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even if rain is made of water (therefore largely H&#8322;O).</p><p>In any case, at least Stangroom&#8217;s examples of foundational facts are all of a kind, even if very different from each other. Not so with G.E. Moore<strong> </strong>himself. Moore actually began his philosophical career by arguing that there are<strong> </strong>&#8220;moral facts&#8221;. He also included the existence of time and free will, and the reality of &#8220;other minds&#8221;. These examples are <em>philosophical</em>. But what about the statements &#8220;women are inferior&#8221;, &#8220;shamans can fly&#8221;, &#8220;the Hutu are superior to the Tutsi&#8221;, etc?</p><h4>Relativism and Moorean Facts</h4><p>Stangroom brought these Moorean facts up in the strict context of relativism. In simple terms, if relativism were true (or simply if it were taken to its logical conclusion), then in some cultures walls <em>wouldn&#8217;t</em> be deemed to be solid, or fire wouldn&#8217;t be deemed to burn.</p><p>We can guess that all cultures do <em>not</em> believe any of this. Can a relativist answer why that&#8217;s so?</p><p>Another way of putting this is to say that if every culture believes that walls are solid, fire burns, etc., then why can&#8217;t we move beyond these obvious examples to less obvious ones? Sure, they are indeed <em>obvious</em>. But what relevance does that have to philosophy? Similarly, accepting them helps save lives. So?</p><p>Again, can we move from these obvious examples of Moorean facts to Moorean facts which are scientific, moral, political, and historical? (Some of these Moorean facts actually require a scientific account to explain why they&#8217;re facts. However, in a Moorean context, that&#8217;s irrelevant too.)</p><h4>The Psychology of Disbelieving Relativism</h4><p>This stress on psychology (i.e., as it relates to both relativism and Moorean facts) is summed up by Stangroom:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The real puzzle, then, about the doctrines of scepticism and relativism is that nobody really believes them. Not in their bones.&#8221;</p></div><p>Stangroom adds that &#8220;we know that scepticism and relativism are false&#8221;.</p><p>This is an extreme, or at least forthright, position.</p><p>It can be argued that Stangroom&#8217;s psychological points simply don&#8217;t matter when it comes to philosophy and the claims of relativists. Still, it&#8217;s also a <em>philosophical</em> claim to say that they do matter! After all, it can hardly be ignored (if it&#8217;s true at all) that most of the things relativists claim, they don&#8217;t actually believe! Whether these psychological points belong to philosophy or not may not be of supreme importance.</p><p>Stangroom mentioned probability in the phrase &#8220;more than just probably true&#8221;. Psychologically, he&#8217;s right. We don&#8217;t believe that we&#8217;d <em>probably</em> get burnt if we jumped into a fire. We believe that we <em>will</em> get burnt. Yet what bearing do these psychological states (or beliefs) have philosophically?</p><p>Stangroom elaborates on the psychology of belief (or on the psychology of believing in Moorean facts) in the following:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The argument here is that it isn&#8217;t possible to doubt that there are facts of the matter about the world, or that it isn&#8217;t possible to think that truth is necessarily relative to cultures or forms of life. It is rather that we *don&#8217;t* in fact do these things.&#8221;</p></div><p>The second part of the argument goes as follows:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Or, more precisely, the argument here is that our primary orientation to the world, the orientation in terms of which we *gear into* the world (to borrow some phenomenological terminology), will not allow us to doubt the fact that there are real, foundational truths about the world.&#8221;</p></div><p>Whether or not these claims are true, how can we connect them to the theme of relativism?</p><p>Do all cultures accept <em>foundational truth</em>s about the world? And if they do, then why can&#8217;t we work up from them to other truths which can&#8217;t be taken to be foundational? In this case, are there any inferential links between foundational/Moorean truths and other kinds of truth? However, even if there are such inferential links, it may not follow that all cultures make the same links or recognise any links at all.</p><p>In the end, if there are foundational beliefs, facts or truths, it&#8217;s always possible for the relativist to accept them, and then draw a line. However, as already stated, what justifies this move within the strict context of relativism itself?</p><h4>Language Games?</h4><p>Oddly, although Wittgenstein&#8217;s notion of &#8220;language games&#8221; has been read as an example of relativism, his notion of &#8220;hinge&#8221; beliefs (as well as &#8220;forms of life&#8221;) can be taken as being Moorean or foundational. Yet aren&#8217;t they only foundational within particular language games? In other words, it may be the case that different language games have different Moorean truths or facts.</p><p>In a Wittgensteinian spirit, Stangroom sees these Moorean/foundational facts as being those &#8220;we gear into the world&#8221; with. Our psychologies &#8220;will not allow us to doubt the fact that there are real, foundational truths about the world&#8221;. Stangroom makes this psychological and behavioural reality even more clear when he states that we can&#8217;t &#8220;override our visceral, instinctual certainty about real, foundational truth&#8221;. He then mentions</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;our fear of falling from great heights, our urge to jump out of the way of oncoming buses, and by our lack of inclination to put our hands into roaring fires&#8221;.</p></div><p>Again, isn&#8217;t all this about human psychology, even those aspects of human psychology which transcend all particular language games?&#8230;</p><p>But hang on a minute.</p><p>As an 18th-century empiricist might have been keen to say, don&#8217;t human persons first need to fall from a height, be knocked over by a vehicle, or put their hands in a fire to first realise these things shouldn&#8217;t be done? Either that, or they need to be told that by their parents or by others.</p><p>Still, perhaps <em>a posteriori</em> truths can be foundational truths too! What&#8217;s more, isn&#8217;t all this to assume that there&#8217;s a clear and deep divide between human psychology and &#8220;real, foundational truths about the world&#8221;?</p><h4>The Anthropologist and the Shaman</h4><p>Stangroom makes the discussion of these <em>obvious</em> facts more relevant and interesting when he cites two possible conflicts between two different cultures.</p><p>Take an anthropologist who&#8217;s been studying shamanism. According to<strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=b1b5cd030bce143a&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7TMouN2qrcR0O60z7Fb9xpShAmSg%3A1780409439863&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=X-QeauHhMe3-7_UPkafB0QI&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAah7ybx4grlHE8jE2iM1AoHmFtSNDdwRK&amp;oq=Why+Truth+&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgpXaHkgVHJ1dGggKgIIADIEECMYJzIKEC4YgAQYigUYJzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgNI2ytQAFizFnAAeACQAQCYAZIBoAHlBqoBAzkuMbgBAcgBAPgBAZgCCqACsAfCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgIWEC4YgAQYigUYQxixAxiDARjHARjRA8ICChAjGJ4GGPAFGCfCAggQABiABBixA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBmAMAkgcDOC4yoAegnQGyBwM4LjK4B7AHwgcHMi05LjAuMcgHN4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz"> </a></strong>one shaman,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[l]arge solid objects moving above a certain speed turn into a magical substance which conveys spiritual insight on contact and feels like expensive massage oil&#8221;.</p></div><p>This shaman visits the anthropologist in London. As both walk across a busy street, the anthropologist avoids a bus by leaping backward and, in the process, yanks the shaman backward from the bus too. He was just standing still! In response,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[t]he anthropologist stands there with her mouth open, gazing at her baffled companion and wondering what on earth she is going to write in that article now&#8221;.</p></div><p>Some relativists may (or probably will) regard Stangroom&#8217;s story as racist or a caricature of a shaman. They may argue that a shaman wouldn&#8217;t do that&#8230; Why not? Does cultural relativity stop at certain points? And if it does, then why does it do so?</p><p>So do all cultures accept Moorean facts, and then go off in their own very different directions?</p><p>Now take Stangroom&#8217;s next example. Stangroom writes:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[T]he person who sort of believes that homeopathy might be true in a spiritual kind of way will choose standard, non-&#8217;alternative&#8217; painkillers for a third-degree burn.&#8221;</p></div><p>This story parallels something I read on Medium. It includes both a shaman and someone who <em>did</em> accept &#8220;alternative medicine&#8221;. Paul Fiery wrote:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;I knew a person who died of cancer because a shaman had warned her that going to a Western doctor would &#8216;pollute her aura&#8217; and render her immune to his shamanistic ministrations.&#8221;</p></div><p>It&#8217;s worth quoting the paranormal researcher Rupert Sheldrake here. In the book <em>The Science Delusion</em>, he informs his readers about the &#8220;miracle cure&#8221; for warts:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Some people build up reputations as &#8216;wart healers&#8217;, and cure warts just by touching them. [ ] Another method is to rub the wart with a potato and then bury the potato under a particular tree at a particular phase of the moon. Some people get rid of their warts by selling them to a sibling.&#8221;</p></div><p>To be fair to Sheldrake, he&#8217;s emphasising the power of belief in the above. However, he only mentions that in a single sentence. What&#8217;s more, Sheldrake simply bypasses the fact that most people who do benefit from these placebos don&#8217;t actually believe that they are placebos. (Similarly, religious people don&#8217;t believe they&#8217;re taking part in an autonomous &#8220;language game&#8221;.)</p><p>Now take the following account of the &#8220;anarchist philosopher&#8221; Paul Feyerabend by science journalist John Horgan. (This account was about Feyerabend&#8217;s health at that time.) Horgan wrote:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Recalling Feyerabend&#8217;s excoriation of the medical profession, I could not resist asking, did her husband seek medical treatment for his tumor? Of course, she replied. He had had &#8216;total confidence&#8217; in his doctors&#8217; diagnosis and had been willing to accept any treatment they recommended; the tumor had simply been detected too late for anything to be done.&#8221;</p></div><p>In both the homoeopathy and Feyerabend cases, <em>politics trumps truth</em>. Or, rather, in the end politics did <em>not</em> trump truth. Feyerabend believed it was politically important to respect other traditions when it came to medical matters, as well as when it came to voodoo, astrology and just about everything else. (Horgan even tells his readers that<strong> </strong>Feyerabend stretched<strong> </strong>this to include the Nazism of his youth! &#8220;Nazism should be allowed to thrive.&#8221;) The same with the fan of homoeopathy. She believes that the &#8220;spiritual truths&#8221; of other cultures must be respected and seen as being equal to all our own&#8230; except when it comes to <em>third-degree burns</em>!</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[How Philosophers of Reference Saved the World from Relativism]]></title><description><![CDATA[When Kuhn and others questioned realism in science, the "tool" of reference was used to argue that the world is not well lost.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/how-philosophers-of-reference-saved</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/how-philosophers-of-reference-saved</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2026 09:13:12 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png" width="882" height="582" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!TWST!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fe98a3aa2-a9c0-49b1-a1fb-3df78e6f0040_882x582.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>The <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22we+need+an+alternative+account+of+meaning+which+allows+that+people+holding+competing+or+successive+theories+may+still+be+talking+about+the+same+thing.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5c-mTDR0h2NVZWzBQgvE3DSD0uQw%3A1780900262695&amp;ei=pmEmauWSKoyShbIPw9XDqA8&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjl_aa8gveUAxUMSUEAHcPqEPUQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22we+need+an+alternative+account+of+meaning+which+allows+that+people+holding+competing+or+successive+theories+may+still+be+talking+about+the+same+thing.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAipQFJYW4gSGFja2luZzogIndlIG5lZWQgYW4gYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgYWNjb3VudCBvZiBtZWFuaW5nIHdoaWNoIGFsbG93cyB0aGF0IHBlb3BsZSBob2xkaW5nIGNvbXBldGluZyBvciBzdWNjZXNzaXZlIHRoZW9yaWVzIG1heSBzdGlsbCBiZSB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHRoaW5nLiJIAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcAgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">following passage</a> expresses what was at stake after <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Kuhn%27s+own+revolution&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6lgZ4TSZj4Ys1RdQJeOMSGl81wEA%3A1780900178313&amp;ei=UmEmarviEqWvhbIP94CJ6AE&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi704iUgveUAxWlV0EAHXdAAh0Q4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Kuhn%27s+own+revolution&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFUt1aG4ncyBvd24gcmV2b2x1dGlvbjIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSLIqULYHWJsjcAJ4AZABAJgBbqAByAOqAQMzLjK4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgegArgEwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBxAjGLACGCfCAggQABgIGAcYHsICChAAGAgYBxgeGArCAgYQABgeGA3CAggQABgeGA0YCsICCBAAGAUYHhgNwgIIEAAYCBgeGA3CAgoQIRgKGKABGMMEmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDNS4yoAehIrIHAzMuMrgHmQTCBwUyLTEuNsgHVYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Thomas Kuhn&#8217;s own &#8220;revolution&#8221;</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[W]e need an alternative account of meaning which allows that people holding competing or successive theories may still be talking about the same thing.&#8221;</p></div><p>Partly as a reaction to what many took to be <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Kuhnian+relativism%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5MqBWoIsAmOuRmhw9a7F06KH0Hmg%3A1780900333460&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=7WEmarzrGca6i-gP2OzPgQ8&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZv_YzfKkNfUGvSGJzeKco4YswiJZKN&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj8lYTegveUAxVG3QIHHVj2M_AQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Kuhnian+relativism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhQiS3VobmlhbiByZWxhdGl2aXNtIjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUj4DVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF7oAF7qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKhAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHlgWyBwMwLjG4B6EBwgcDNC0xyAcfgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;Kuhnian relativism&#8221;</a>, some philosophers wanted to find a means of fighting back. They did so by focusing on <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=reference+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5gLuPEH7tged8n1s_XVRAhvPfIbw%3A1780910410938&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=SokmaobnNr2Xxc8Pt__qwAU&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaXWs-ftvc31fbquoifccfAKcd7CFP1&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGtKyjqPeUAxW9S_EDHbe_GlgQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=reference+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhZyZWZlcmVuY2UgKHBoaWxvc29waHkpMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IwilQAFjuJHAAeACQAQCYAV-gAcAIqgECMTS4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAg6gArIJwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAg4QLhivARjHARixAxiABMICBRAAGIAEwgIIEAAYFhgeGAqYAwCSBwQxMi4yoAeSWLIHBDEyLjK4B7IJwgcGMi0xMS4zyAdagAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">reference</a>.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>Meaning always (or often) goes alongside reference in this tradition. But <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22%22What+then+is+the+constant+in+meaning%3F%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7_1GIQlhXQjzu79csgMZYJPzSICg%3A1780900404525&amp;ei=NGImas_kH4OLhbIP_Oiu2Ak&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjPzvf_gveUAxWDRUEAHXy0C5sQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22%22What+then+is+the+constant+in+meaning%3F%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiNUlhbiBIYWNraW5nOiAiIldoYXQgdGhlbiBpcyB0aGUgY29uc3RhbnQgaW4gbWVhbmluZz8iMgUQIRigAUjjJ1AAWKwacAB4AJABAJgB1QGgAdUDqgEFMS4xLjG4AQPIAQD4AQH4AQKYAgOgApcEwgIEECMYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIFEAAYgATCAgUQLhiABMICChAAGIAEGBQYhwLCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgIKEC4YQxiABBiKBZgDAJIHBTEuMS4xoAeJJ7IHBTEuMS4xuAeXBMIHBzItMS4xLjHIBzOACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;what then is the constant in meaning?&#8221;</a> According to the historian and philosopher of science <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4lXx3L2DZ8dQjUhPw25h_tk7hvdQ%3A1780910460773&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=fIkmaouTLeHWhbIPlr2NMQ&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaXjFJ3pLM0ZrZ_INVjSq4-7l5qZb1p&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiLwY67qPeUAxVha0EAHZZeIwYQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtJYW4gSGFja2luZzIKECMY8AUYngYYJzIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIKEC4YgAQYigUYQzIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABEisCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF5oAF5qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKOAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHmxyyBwMwLjG4B44BwgcDMy0xyAcRgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ian Hacking</a>, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hilary+Putnam&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4oAvl5H6llUl2uVZMH-yISmwVRCQ%3A1780910526533&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=vokmapOnHo_BhbIP7oin-A4&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaXziPFGoi5-FDfY0Dv0Edqx5O6g1ZT&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiT_rvaqPeUAxWPYEEAHW7ECe8Q4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hilary+Putnam&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1IaWxhcnkgUHV0bmFtMgQQIxgnMgoQLhhDGIAEGIoFMgoQABiABBiKBRhDMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAESIEJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWagAWaqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAn-YAwCSBwMwLjGgB7cLsgcDMC4xuAd_wgcDMy0xyAcRgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Hilary Putnam</a> <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Putnam+makes+everything+turn+on+reference+and+extension%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6AvW-k28me81VVcku62uS4C6qD_g%3A1780900390665&amp;ei=JmImarqkKILrhbIP5sLUmQk&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi6z6n5gveUAxWCdUEAHWYhNZMQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Putnam+makes+everything+turn+on+reference+and+extension%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiRklhbiBIYWNraW5nOiAiUHV0bmFtIG1ha2VzIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgdHVybiBvbiByZWZlcmVuY2UgYW5kIGV4dGVuc2lvbiJIzzZQ3gpYjDBwAXgBkAEAmAGCA6ABxg6qAQc1LjYuMS4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIEoALbBcICChAAGEcY1gQYsAPCAggQIRigARjDBMICChAhGAoYoAEYwwSYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwcxLjIuMC4xoAfJGbIHBzAuMi4wLjG4B8kFwgcFMi0zLjHIBx2ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;makes everything turn on reference and extension&#8221;</a>.</p><p>The most obvious thing to say here is that these philosophers were attempting to securely tie names, words and terms to the world.</p><h4>Fregean Sense</h4><p>Long before Kuhn and Putnam, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Frege&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4Y3Ke0XPkUz5CFJMANe6xVHVDGGg%3A1780910578444&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=8okmasC-F9WD9u8PocKGyAQ&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaYAosg9cMtrmBT5YlEHrbU5MHdJYYe&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjA_5rzqPeUAxXVgf0HHSGhAUkQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Frege&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgVGcmVnZTIKEC4YQxiABBiKBTIKEC4YgAQYFBiHAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAESIodUNgMWJMScAF4AJABAJgBcqAB0QOqAQM0LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagApcEqAIKwgIHECMY6gIYJ8ICDRAuGMcBGK8BGOoCGCfCAg0QIxjwBRieBhjqAhgnwgINECMYngYY8AUY6gIYJ8ICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICFhAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwEYxwEY0QPCAgoQIxjwBRieBhgnwgIEECMYJ8ICEBAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAggQLhixAxiABJgDEvEFAHULRFLVWqeSBwMzLjOgB79VsgcDMi4zuAeEBMIHBTItMi40yAc5gAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Gottlob Frege</a> <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+Frege+%22thought+that+a+word+has+a+standard+sense%2C+which+is+what+makes+a+scientific+tradition+possible%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n60jjINXBvT9L2JI_g-0Ra9jLYlyQ%3A1780900453408&amp;ei=ZWImaoPMGLa7hbIPsOLh8Ao&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjDkp-Xg_eUAxW2XUEAHTBxGK4Q4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+Frege+%22thought+that+a+word+has+a+standard+sense%2C+which+is+what+makes+a+scientific+tradition+possible%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAicklhbiBIYWNraW5nOiBGcmVnZSAidGhvdWdodCB0aGF0IGEgd29yZCBoYXMgYSBzdGFuZGFyZCBzZW5zZSwgd2hpY2ggaXMgd2hhdCBtYWtlcyBhIHNjaWVudGlmaWMgdHJhZGl0aW9uIHBvc3NpYmxlIjIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIEECMYJzILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECMgoQABiABBgUGIcCMgoQABiABBiKBRhDMgUQABiABDIKEC4YQxiABBiKBTIFEAAYgARI9ldQ7wRY_VFwAXgBkAEAmAFnoAFnqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEB-AECmAICoAKJAcICChAAGEcY1gQYsAOYAwCIBgGQBgeSBwMxLjGgB6wTsgcDMC4xuAd8wgcDMy0yyAccgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;thought that a word has a standard sense, which is what makes a scientific tradition possible&#8221;</a>. What is that sense? &#8212;</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The sense is what is shared by all communicators, and may be passed down from generation to generation of students.&#8221;</p></div><p>It will be shown that Hilary Putnam&#8217;s <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hilary+Putnam%27s+%22stereotype%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4XJZqnyqGEQShyJxglacF17lVCkQ%3A1780900639964&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=H2MmaqSWOKKNi-gPxMOAmAc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZxL2En9B1z9_PUD4TjqPLeTZTHTDoO&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjkoZfwg_eUAxWixgIHHcQhAHMQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hilary+Putnam%27s+%22stereotype%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhxIaWxhcnkgUHV0bmFtJ3MgInN0ZXJlb3R5cGUiSIcLUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAawBoAGsAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHMLIHALgHAMIHAMgHAIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;stereotype&#8221;</a> (to be discussed in a moment) shares a family resemblance to Frege&#8217;s <em>sense</em>. (They&#8217;re still very different notions.) Still, what is important here<strong> </strong>is that Frege</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;taught us that an expression should have a definite fixed sense, which we apprehend, and which enables us to pick out the reference&#8221;.</p></div><p>In other words, the route a word/term takes to a <em>thing</em> goes via this <em>fixed sense</em>.</p><h4>Hacking&#8217;s Own Position on Reference</h4><p>Sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to decipher if Hacking is putting his own view or that of someone else (e.g., Putnam). In this case, he puts the case for <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+permanence+of+reference+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5zte7Ov3j-Uy_o_Uu2afLiCHmbvQ%3A1780900705710&amp;ei=YWMmarmFK6G3hbIPspPm2AI&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj5ucaPhPeUAxWhW0EAHbKJGSsQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=the+permanence+of+reference+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKHRoZSBwZXJtYW5lbmNlIG9mIHJlZmVyZW5jZSAocGhpbG9zb3BoeSkyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUirKFDsBli-InABeACQAQCYAZMCoAHrDqoBBTUuNS4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAINoALfD8ICBxAhGAoYoAGYAwCIBgGSBwUyLjcuNKAH2x6yBwUyLjcuNLgH3w_CBwQyLTEzyAc8gAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">the permanence of reference</a></em> in the following way:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;If we do have a genuine natural kind term, the reference of the term will remain the same, even though stereotypical opinions of the kind may change. Thus the fundamental principle of identity for a term shifts from Fregeian sense to Putnamian reference.&#8221;</p></div><p>We&#8217;re told that the reference (miraculously?) remains the same even though what are deemed to be its stereotypical properties change. The claim here isn&#8217;t that the reference can be &#8220;found&#8221; <em>without</em> relying on its stereotypical properties, only that such properties change. The obvious question now is:</p><blockquote><p><strong>If the stereotypical properties are always changing, how do we know we have the same reference?</strong></p></blockquote><p>The Putnamian position is that we get at the reference via his version of &#8220;Fregean sense&#8221;. The Fregean sense &#8220;may change&#8221;, while the reference, <em>qua</em> reference, doesn&#8217;t. However, does that really answer the question (in bold) above?</p><p>To be clear. Hacking accepts the importance of reference for science. However, he tells his readers that &#8220;[a]nybody who thinks that reference works by a causal and historical connection to the thing named ought to reflect on the following example&#8221;. Hacking then gives a complex historical example in which the notion of &#8220;causal and historical connection to the thing named&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work, but Hacking&#8217;s own <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=entity+realism+and+Ian+Hacking&amp;sca_esv=7aa5c3abdb8d8035&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5_rnblxS_rzXiwt7bQjmlv78EUAg%3A1780913205152&amp;ei=NZQmavX7CJKHhbIP4MmN8QU&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi16t_XsveUAxWSQ0EAHeBkI14Q4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=entity+realism+and+Ian+Hacking&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHmVudGl0eSByZWFsaXNtIGFuZCBJYW4gSGFja2luZzIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSIJCULwFWJc8cAd4AZABAJgBfKAB6w2qAQQxOS4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIdoALAD8ICChAAGEcY1gQYsAPCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIFEAAY7wXCAgUQIRifBcICBxAhGAoYoAGYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwQyNC41oAf2Z7IHBDE3LjW4B4oPwgcIMC40LjI0LjHIB4QBgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">entity realism</a> does.</p><p>So this isn&#8217;t an attack on reference. It&#8217;s an attack on a particular account of reference.</p><h4>Hacking on Acid</h4><p>Hacking provides a concrete example of possible <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=incommensurability&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6DIxa3zMgCaxvOX6YCvwuwVDjQsQ%3A1780900815072&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=z2MmaoX5AbWAhbIPr_Sh0Qo&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZx35VtQVPYuxswoeZXTQk-hSHf6cyE&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjFnNfDhPeUAxU1QEEAHS96KKoQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=incommensurability&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhJpbmNvbW1lbnN1cmFiaWxpdHkyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAjILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIzghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBaKABaKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACiAGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB4gIsgcDMC4xuAeIAcIHAzQtMcgHGoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">incommensurability</a><strong> </strong>as it relates to<strong> </strong>the word &#8216;acid&#8217;:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The incommensurabilist would say that we mean something different by the word &#8216;acid&#8217; than did Lavoisier or Dalton around 1800. Our theories about acids have changed substantially [ ].&#8221;</p></div><p>Of course, this is very difficult for the layperson to grasp because he&#8217;d need to have both historical knowledge and a knowledge of chemistry. It would work very differently if, say, Hacking gave as an example the word &#8216;cat&#8217; or &#8216;brick&#8217;. Yet even the layperson would probably accept the clause &#8220;our theories about acids have changed substantially&#8221;.</p><p>In any case, Hacking<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22but%2C+Putnam+says%2C+we+are+still+talking+about+the+same+kind+of+stuff+as+those+pioneers+of+the+new+chemistry.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5HfKGyLxgvjlUl0Ta8W8kL0z17dg%3A1780900867688&amp;ei=A2QmasnaKf2KhbIPrIe_iQU&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiJ6OTchPeUAxV9RUEAHazDL1EQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22but%2C+Putnam+says%2C+we+are+still+talking+about+the+same+kind+of+stuff+as+those+pioneers+of+the+new+chemistry.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAieklhbiBIYWNraW5nOiAiYnV0LCBQdXRuYW0gc2F5cywgd2UgYXJlIHN0aWxsIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHNhbWUga2luZCBvZiBzdHVmZiBhcyB0aG9zZSBwaW9uZWVycyBvZiB0aGUgbmV3IGNoZW1pc3RyeS4iSABQAFgAcAB4AZABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">continues</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[ ] Putnam says, we are still talking about the same kind of stuff as those pioneers of the new chemistry.&#8221;</p></div><p>Intuitively, and simply, this seems feasible. It could be a case of people saying <em>different</em> things about the <em>same</em> stuff. Even contemporary persons could be saying different things about the same stuff.</p><p>This position posits a kind of strong distinction between the stuff <em>itself</em> and what we <em>say about it</em>. Can that distinction be maintained? Wouldn&#8217;t it assume that firstly we have uncontaminated stuff, and, later, our sayings about it? What if that stuff is <em>always</em> contaminated with sayings or theories? That may be the case. Yet the same stuff would still underpin all these different sayings and theories.</p><p>Reference and extension are means to hold on to that same stuff.</p><h4>Putnam&#8217;s Stereotypes</h4><p><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Certainly+there+is+an+important+cluster+of+properties+and+in+the+professional+stereotype+for+acids%3A+acids+are+substances+that+in+a+water+solution+taste+sour%2C+and+change+the+colour+of+indicators+such+as+litmus+paper.+They+react+with+many+metals+to+form+hydrogen%2C+and+react+with+bases+to+form+salts.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6T5XRDq-KaW2zxdGLMf66-zM0rGA%3A1780900964951&amp;ei=ZGQmauHgOZCjhbIP7Z3L0QY&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjhopWLhfeUAxWQUUEAHe3OMmoQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Certainly+there+is+an+important+cluster+of+properties+and+in+the+professional+stereotype+for+acids%3A+acids+are+substances+that+in+a+water+solution+taste+sour%2C+and+change+the+colour+of+indicators+such+as+litmus+paper.+They+react+with+many+metals+to+form+hydrogen%2C+and+react+with+bases+to+form+salts.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiuAJJYW4gSGFja2luZzogIkNlcnRhaW5seSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgY2x1c3RlciBvZiBwcm9wZXJ0aWVzIGFuZCBpbiB0aGUgcHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsIHN0ZXJlb3R5cGUgZm9yIGFjaWRzOiBhY2lkcyBhcmUgc3Vic3RhbmNlcyB0aGF0IGluIGEgd2F0ZXIgc29sdXRpb24gdGFzdGUgc291ciwgYW5kIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgY29sb3VyIG9mIGluZGljYXRvcnMgc3VjaCBhcyBsaXRtdXMgcGFwZXIuIFRoZXkgcmVhY3Qgd2l0aCBtYW55IG1ldGFscyB0byBmb3JtIGh5ZHJvZ2VuLCBhbmQgcmVhY3Qgd2l0aCBiYXNlcyB0byBmb3JtIHNhbHRzLiJIAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcAgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">According to Hacking</a>, Putnam justified his position in terms of what he called a &#8220;stereotype&#8221;:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Certainly there is an important cluster of properties and in the professional stereotype for acids: acids are substances that in a water solution taste sour, and change the colour of indicators such as litmus paper. They react with many metals to form hydrogen, and react with bases to form salts.&#8221;</p></div><p>That&#8217;s a decent number of properties we can use to identify acids. Is this a roundabout way of saying that everyone in the know will experience a sour taste, experience a litmus paper changing to a certain colour, etc. regardless of whether they lived in 1800 or 2020? This would mean that any disagreements about acids must occur elsewhere&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;beyond these specific properties. It seems that the differences in <em>theory</em> account for these differences.</p><p>Hacking mentions <em>theory</em> in <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Lavoisier+and+Dalton+would+agree+completely+with+this+stereotype.+Lavoisier+happened+to+have+a+false+theory+about+such+substances%2C+for+he+thought+every+acid+had+oxygen+in%C2%A0it.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n40KUUglKJ4RlJIWP7rQlKHKRnIJQ%3A1780901046077&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=tmQmavGuAtWpkdUPlcjmoQU&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZyxtw2mvJfFL56MAkYU3ovOAbbrW-J&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjx4eqxhfeUAxXVVKQEHRWkOVQQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Lavoisier+and+Dalton+would+agree+completely+with+this+stereotype.+Lavoisier+happened+to+have+a+false+theory+about+such+substances%2C+for+he+thought+every+acid+had+oxygen+in%C2%A0it.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ir4BSWFuIEhhY2tpbmc6ICJMYXZvaXNpZXIgYW5kIERhbHRvbiB3b3VsZCBhZ3JlZSBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IHdpdGggdGhpcyBzdGVyZW90eXBlLiBMYXZvaXNpZXIgaGFwcGVuZWQgdG8gaGF2ZSBhIGZhbHNlIHRoZW9yeSBhYm91dCBzdWNoIHN1YnN0YW5jZXMsIGZvciBoZSB0aG91Z2h0IGV2ZXJ5IGFjaWQgaGFkIG94eWdlbiBpbsKgaXQuIkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwCACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">the following</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Lavoisier and Dalton would agree completely with this stereotype. Lavoisier happened to have a false theory about such substances, for he thought every acid had oxygen in it.&#8221;</p></div><p>So we have different theorists all experiencing a water solution tasting sour, indicators such as litmus paper changing colour, stuff reacting with many metals to form hydrogen, and the stuff reacting with bases to form salts. Over and above all that, we have <em>theory </em>too<em>.</em></p><p>(Just to get this point across, let&#8217;s take Putnam&#8217;s other example of the word &#8216;water&#8217;. Putnam &#8220;gives us colourless, transparent, tasteless, thirst-quenching, etc [as] part of the stereotype for &#8216;water&#8217;&#8221;.)</p><p>One question readers may ask here is whether or not all these properties (or stereotypes) really are <em>theory-free</em>. After all, we&#8217;re taking about hydrogen, oxygen, litmus paper, salt, etc. here. Perhaps that doesn&#8217;t matter in this specific context.</p><p>Hacking concludes with a entity-realist statement: <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22But+there+is+no+doubt+that+Lavoisier+and+Davy+were+talking+about+the+same+stuff.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7x3l9rkWbDcSqtDIsJQoghBIMdFw%3A1780901142136&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=FmUmau6cBqW4kdUP8fi2-As&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZzJi6E9sV1vJyhitfBX5GJT-Z2CW2F&amp;ved=0ahUKEwju_9HfhfeUAxUlXKQEHXG8Db8Q4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22But+there+is+no+doubt+that+Lavoisier+and+Davy+were+talking+about+the+same+stuff.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Il9JYW4gSGFja2luZzogIkJ1dCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBkb3VidCB0aGF0IExhdm9pc2llciBhbmQgRGF2eSB3ZXJlIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHNhbWUgc3R1ZmYuIkiQOlAAWK80cAB4AJABAJgBxQGgAagDqgEDMC4zuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAe1ArIHALgHAMIHAMgHAIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;But there is no doubt that Lavoisier and Davy were talking about the same stuff.&#8221;</a></p><p>Davy is mentioned here because in 1810 he showed that Lavoisier&#8217;s theory &#8220;was a mistake&#8221;. That is because &#8220;muriatic acid is just HC1,<strong> w</strong>hat we now call hydrochloric acid&#8221;. Here again we&#8217;re shown that theory rides piggyback on these stereotypical properties of the stuff. Indeed, the new term &#8220;hydrochloric acid&#8221; does so too.</p><p>These general points are made again by Hacking we <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22the+philosopher+of+naming+must+ask+if+Lavoisier+meant+Br%C3%B8nsted-Lowry+acids+or+Lewis+acids+when+he+spoke+of%C2%A0acids.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4iAheiVQEFfgR2N5kxTjOiB8FPQQ%3A1780901212814&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=XGUmav-OL5mnkdUPwNHLgQM&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZzbOhRjppZNdj-sKO8hhYJOxsfDvYz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj_rKuBhveUAxWZU6QEHcDoMjAQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22the+philosopher+of+naming+must+ask+if+Lavoisier+meant+Br%C3%B8nsted-Lowry+acids+or+Lewis+acids+when+he+spoke+of%C2%A0acids.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IoIBSWFuIEhhY2tpbmc6ICJ0aGUgcGhpbG9zb3BoZXIgb2YgbmFtaW5nIG11c3QgYXNrIGlmIExhdm9pc2llciBtZWFudCBCcsO4bnN0ZWQtTG93cnkgYWNpZHMgb3IgTGV3aXMgYWNpZHMgd2hlbiBoZSBzcG9rZSBvZsKgYWNpZHMuIkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwCACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">he states that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;the philosopher of naming must ask if Lavoisier meant Br&#248;nsted-Lowry acids or Lewis acids when he spoke of acids.&#8221;</p></div><p>Here&#8217;s the crunch: &#8220;Obviously he meant neither.&#8221;</p><p>That means that there is a distinction to be made, again, between stereotypical properties and theories. Can we now say that Br&#248;nsted-Lowry acids and Lewis acids are <em>theory-laden</em>, but stereotypical properties aren&#8217;t? (The philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Russell+Hanson+%28philosopher%29&amp;sca_esv=4fa1f44df72afb23&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n52kddDSNtGB7KPOe9srJybOnplpQ%3A1780984186529&amp;ei=eqknasqFIKq2hbIP3ee2SQ&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjKqqeOu_mUAxUqW0EAHd2zLQkQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Russell+Hanson+%28philosopher%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHFJ1c3NlbGwgSGFuc29uIChwaGlsb3NvcGhlcikyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUiaMVD8C1jOInABeAGQAQCYAW2gAYcEqgEDNi4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIIoAK1BMICChAAGEcY1gQYsAOYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwM3LjGgB8QasgcDNi4xuAeuBMIHBTAuMS43yAcggAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Russell Hanson</a>, way back in the 1960s, would have certainly said, &#8216;No, we can&#8217;t.&#8221;)</p><h4>Bas van Fraaseen&#8217;s Electron</h4><p>A much-better known case of naming<strong> </strong>is the electron. Hacking <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Still%2C+%5BBas+van+Fraassen%5D+does+tease+the+realist%2C+who+is+confident+that+there+are+electrons%3A+%27Whose+electron+did+Millikan+observe%3B+Lorenz%27s%2C+Rutherford%27s%2C+Bohr%27s+or+Schrodinger%27s%3F%27%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5HQgdyEryVJ-BPRzMWWBlao18aBg%3A1780901364539&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9GUmaoTSHsqL9u8Pr_zPgAU&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ0BAY3Onvgqr2NN2f70h2pBcpEJ8IF&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiEnNjJhveUAxXKhf0HHS_-E1AQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Still%2C+%5BBas+van+Fraassen%5D+does+tease+the+realist%2C+who+is+confident+that+there+are+electrons%3A+%27Whose+electron+did+Millikan+observe%3B+Lorenz%27s%2C+Rutherford%27s%2C+Bohr%27s+or+Schrodinger%27s%3F%27%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IrYBIlN0aWxsLCBbQmFzIHZhbiBGcmFhc3Nlbl0gZG9lcyB0ZWFzZSB0aGUgcmVhbGlzdCwgd2hvIGlzIGNvbmZpZGVudCB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBlbGVjdHJvbnM6ICdXaG9zZSBlbGVjdHJvbiBkaWQgTWlsbGlrYW4gb2JzZXJ2ZTsgTG9yZW56J3MsIFJ1dGhlcmZvcmQncywgQm9ocidzIG9yIFNjaHJvZGluZ2VyJ3M_JyJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcAgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[Bas van Fraassen] does tease the realist, who is confident that there are electrons: &#8216;Whose electron did Millikan observe; Lorenz&#8217;s, Rutherford&#8217;s, Bohr&#8217;s or Schrodinger&#8217;s?&#8217;&#8221;</p></div><p>On our theme of theories, isn&#8217;t the Dutch-American philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Bas+van+Fraassen&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4lPwd0VaQtpPYdSQRPLlt_FLSxpw%3A1780901414586&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=JmYmatTOHYGF9u8PhaXYiAY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ0Nrx9Eu_JbEIsO9JhFMRXPg14vy9V&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjU-cLhhveUAxWBgv0HHYUSFmEQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Bas+van+Fraassen&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBCYXMgdmFuIEZyYWFzc2VuMgoQLhiABBiKBRhDMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMggQABgWGB4YCjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjTDVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFtoAFtqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKcAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHzQqyBwMwLjG4B5wBwgcDNC0xyAcmgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Bas van Fraassen</a> referring to the different <em>theories</em> of the electron, not to the electron <em>itself</em>? After all, don&#8217;t we have the phrase &#8220;different theories <em>of</em> the electron&#8221;, not &#8220;different theories of the banana&#8221;. That said, what the hell is this <em>theory-free</em> electron? There&#8217;s nothing more <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=theory-laden&amp;sca_esv=fb43ad74c36c59e5&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6r_-bsue1XJxvLG4XZNE9lJkfr2g%3A1780901828078&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=xGcmaqniAu_e7_UPiu-SyQo&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ11KMVqFABN-h0Ph5ioCvWmHr8rFLQ&amp;ved=0ahUKEwip1NymiPeUAxVv77sIHYq3JKkQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=theory-laden&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Igx0aGVvcnktbGFkZW4yChAjGIAEGIoFGCcyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgQQABgeSNAKUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWSgAWSqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoIBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeABrIHAzAuMbgHggHCBwM0LTHIBxiACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">theory-laden</a> than the electron, surely. Tell me, what is the electron without theory? It was born with theories attached to it. It has never been free of theory. The realist, or Putnam, may concede all this. But that still leaves stereotypical properties which run free of theory&#8230; Or do they?</p><p>Now take the (entity) realist&#8217;s &#8220;obvious reply&#8221;, at least <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Millikan+measured+the+charge+of+the+electron.+Lorentz%2C+Rutherford%2C+Bohr%2C+Schrodinger+and+Millikan+were+all+talking+about+electrons.+They+had+different+theories+about+electrons.+Different+stereotypes+of+electrons+have+been+in+vogue+but+it+is+the+reference+that+fixes+the+sameness+of+what+we+are+talking%C2%A0about.%22&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6VTBg6CzixAIbp4zQoObRXIBFXEw%3A1780901458491&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=UmYmaszJG4ypkdUPuuv2qQM&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ0Ytbkf5bCrci4teIp-BxvkcupElWj&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjMur72hveUAxWMVKQEHbq1PTUQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ian+Hacking%3A+%22Millikan+measured+the+charge+of+the+electron.+Lorentz%2C+Rutherford%2C+Bohr%2C+Schrodinger+and+Millikan+were+all+talking+about+electrons.+They+had+different+theories+about+electrons.+Different+stereotypes+of+electrons+have+been+in+vogue+but+it+is+the+reference+that+fixes+the+sameness+of+what+we+are+talking%C2%A0about.%22&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">as expressed by Hacking</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Millikan measured the charge of the electron. Lorentz, Rutherford, Bohr, Schrodinger and Millikan were all talking about electrons. They had different theories about electrons. Different stereotypes of electrons have been in vogue but it is the reference that fixes the sameness of what we are talking about.&#8221;</p></div><p>It&#8217;s not just that theories about any given <em>x</em> change, so too do the stereotypical properties. Hacking is saying that we have something, &#8220;the reference&#8221; (or the electron), which is free of not only theory, but also any <em>fixed</em> set of stereotypical properties. Isn&#8217;t it this position that really irks<strong> </strong>the anti-realist or instrumentalist? What can we say about <em>the reference</em> without any stereotypical properties or theory? Perhaps, then, Hacking isn&#8217;t arguing that we do have the reference (or electron) without any stereotypical properties. It&#8217;s just that such properties can change. That is, they can be &#8220;in vogue&#8221; this week, and out of vogue next week.</p><p>We can now take a slightly different approach to the importance of reference&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;one that doesn&#8217;t actually focus on scientific terms.</p><h4>Donnellan&#8217;s Causal Theory of Reference</h4><p>The philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Keith+Donnellan&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7LWLqrmnNnYeLlnZ2qPzSCEnbUJQ%3A1780901532873&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=nGYmasqlM9KJ9u8Pk7eu6QE&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ0rHWhUEI3zWM5heJsNN9e-pvV3YsS&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjK4_qZh_eUAxXShP0HHZObKx0Q4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Keith+Donnellan&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9LZWl0aCBEb25uZWxsYW4yChAjGPAFGJ4GGCcyChAjGIAEGIoFGCcyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkiZCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF0oAF0qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKfAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHmQ2yBwMwLjG4B58BwgcDNC0xyAcjgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Keith Donnellan</a> attempted to save <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=philosophical+realism&amp;sca_esv=8d63fbbca7a20b91&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWILFTeIJ8SUAeRZ9vTPT_aMAY07O6g%3A1714803472818&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ENM1ZrfmL7WBhbIP8cKuiAI&amp;iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZjXhIBM_lS2sDS2NZgdhW45YGfWY7C8c&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi3ruverPOFAxW1QEEAHXGhCyEQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=philosophical+realism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVwaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIHJlYWxpc20yCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5I-SFQAFixHnAAeACQAQCYAVegAYgMqgECMjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhWgAv0MwgIEECMYJ8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgoQABiABBhDGIoFwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQLhiABBixA8ICDRAAGIAEGLEDGEMYigXCAg4QABiABBiRAhixAxiKBcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIQEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiDARiKBcICCxAuGIAEGJECGIoFmAMAkgcCMjGgB9q8AQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">philosophical realism</a><strong> </strong>via reference. In other words, if we can have a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=causal+theory+of+reference&amp;sca_esv=a4046f1a5a426a33&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n66zaZzC3YdaY6jn1q--Bv79zoVAw%3A1780901587300&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=02YmaquxEJn-7_UPzfXokQ0&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ040IPrh-YlZFLe8G92v5C01gMMwyo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjr5vSzh_eUAxUZ_7sIHc06OtIQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=causal+theory+of+reference&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhpjYXVzYWwgdGhlb3J5IG9mIHJlZmVyZW5jZTIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUi1CFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFzoAFzqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKOAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH4wWyBwMwLjG4B44BwgcDNC0xyAcWgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">causal theory of reference</a> which excludes names like &#8216;Santa&#8217;, then we can distinguish real propositions like &#8220;Lady Gaga will come tonight&#8221; from &#8220;Zeus is angry with us&#8221;.</p><p>Donnellan argued that proper names shouldn&#8217;t rely on being tied to <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=proper+names+and+descriptive+content&amp;sca_esv=f803b90366aaa6bb&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWIJqwKgzgAkYqy64yXbL285fuGL3ig%3A1714802741662&amp;ei=NdA1Zt2KKLfAhbIP9YyDuA4&amp;ved=0ahUKEwid-ZqCqvOFAxU3YEEAHXXGAOcQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=proper+names+and+descriptive+content&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJHByb3BlciBuYW1lcyBhbmQgZGVzY3JpcHRpdmUgY29udGVudDIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYnwVI1U5QiAhYgUZwAXgAkAEAmAF9oAHtDKoBBDE4LjK4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhSgArkMwgIIEAAYgAQYsAPCAgsQABiwAxgHGB4YD8ICBxAAGLADGB7CAgkQABiwAxgeGA_CAgkQABiwAxgIGB7CAgUQABiABMICCBAAGAcYHhgPwgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGB4YD8ICBhAAGAgYHsICBxAAGIAEGA3CAgYQABgNGB7CAggQABgNGB4YD8ICCBAAGAUYDRgewgIKEAAYBRgNGB4YD8ICCBAAGAgYDRgewgILEAAYgAQYhgMYigXCAggQABiABBiiBMICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIEECEYCpgDAIgGAZAGCpIHBDE5LjGgB-lP&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;descriptive content&#8221;</a>. Metaphorically, he believed that this would give individual minds <em>too much powe</em>r, and <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=causal+reference&amp;sca_esv=f803b90366aaa6bb&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWILyh2UfFIE2p_GmEAUVdo2MSwRYQw%3A1714802799946&amp;ei=b9A1ZqutOeq4hbIP9bGEwAo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjroICeqvOFAxVqXEEAHfUYAagQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=causal+reference&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiEGNhdXNhbCByZWZlcmVuY2UyDhAAGIAEGJECGLEDGIoFMgsQLhiABBiRAhiKBTILEAAYgAQYkQIYigUyChAAGIAEGEMYigUyBxAuGIAEGAoyChAuGIAEGEMYigUyChAuGIAEGEMYigUyChAuGIAEGEMYigUyBxAAGIAEGAoyBxAuGIAEGApIghZQjAdYkBBwAXgBkAEAmAFsoAHTBKoBAzYuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCBKACuQLCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgoQABiABBixAxgNwgIHEC4YgAQYDcICBxAAGIAEGA2YAwDiAwUSATEgQIgGAZAGCJIHAzMuMaAH1VA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">direct causal reference</a> less power.</p><p>Associating descriptive content with <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=proper+names+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=fb43ad74c36c59e5&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7rF3eDgS_xKtg12u4Ml7KOwmpgWQ%3A1780901721569&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=WWcmatuqIPu69u8P1Zbs2A0&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiZ1aTUqIty6PrRaCHf4jkvfy1VEr7wv&amp;ved=0ahUKEwibu_fzh_eUAxV7nf0HHVULG9sQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=proper+names+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihlwcm9wZXIgbmFtZXMgKHBoaWxvc29waHkpMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSOAtUABY-ydwAHgAkAEAmAGtAaABvAuqAQM5LjW4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAg6gAogNwgIEECMYJ8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgIFEAAYgATCAggQABgWGB4YCpgDAJIHBTUuOC4xoAfXQrIHBTUuOC4xuAeIDcIHBzItNC45LjHIB58BgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">proper names</a> has been deemed to be <em>idealist </em>by some philosophers too. (&#8220;Subjective&#8221; or &#8220;mentalist&#8221; is a better term in this context.) A causal connection to Lady Gaga (or the &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; relation to Lady Gaga) is concrete. The descriptive content &#8220;The rubbish [or great] singer in Hollywood&#8221; is subjective, or at least dependent on an individual mind (or on individual minds in the plural). Similarly, the <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definite+description&amp;sca_esv=f803b90366aaa6bb&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWIKp0JOuoIKi7PVnRf6NKf3ebgmuQA%3A1714802856042&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=qNA1ZvhSstaFsg-olqvoCA&amp;iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZjXeuGslxW6Smfog7nYlF0Ic7OucyCh1&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4xt64qvOFAxUya0EAHSjLCo0Q4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=definite+description&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRkZWZpbml0ZSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYFhgeGA9IughQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBdqABdqoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACfJgDAJIHAzAuMaAHnAY&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">definite description</a> that readers personally tie to the name &#8216;Santa&#8217; may be very different to the ones other people tie to that name.</p><p>So what would secure us <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=identity+of+reference&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7x6CdUzhs7O-EBc5kyJNZVQA40LA%3A1780910869220&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=FYsmaq2UC_CM9u8PpbXP8Qw&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaZJdfP_Pz2c5stjUfnpFjVPwKGvJya&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjt8u_9qfeUAxVwhv0HHaXaM84Q4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=identity+of+reference&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVpZGVudGl0eSBvZiByZWZlcmVuY2UyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjjCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFsoAFsqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ-mAMAkgcDMC4xoAeLBrIHAzAuMbgHfsIHAzMtMcgHDoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">identity of reference</a></em> here when it comes to the names &#8216;Santa&#8217; and &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217;?</p><p>Donnellan&#8217;s<strong> </strong>causal theory of reference (which excludes <em>Santa</em>) is the realist&#8217;s way of avoiding not just idealism (or, better, subjectivity), but also <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=relativism&amp;sca_esv=88256e003c9ebfca&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6pVY3-C1NNxr7KlJYIReJSCOrZJA%3A1780910910372&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Posmav_HFMmJ9u8PrMrCyAI&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaiaZTmILNkq6JNydIVW8BloR8oeLEbzs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj_3r-RqveUAxXJhP0HHSylECkQ4dUDCCU&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=relativism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgpyZWxhdGl2aXNtMgoQIxiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIzghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBqgKgAaoCqgEDMi0xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAK8ApgDAJIHAzMtMaAHuAWyBwMzLTG4B7wCwgcDMy0xyAcNgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">relativism</a>.</p><p>Conventions, conceptual schemes, identifying descriptions, etc. were deemed to be subjective by Donnellan. Causal processes, on the other hand, are deemed to <em>impose</em> themselves on us. In other words, they tie us firmly to the world.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Science Oppresses: Science Liberates]]></title><description><![CDATA[Does science oppress people? Does it liberate them? Many Western academics think the former. Many in the Third World think the latter.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/science-oppresses-science-liberates</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/science-oppresses-science-liberates</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2026 06:46:29 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!AN1M!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3ddaf6ed-2158-4ddd-aac9-9510fb615b7b_1100x550.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!AN1M!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3ddaf6ed-2158-4ddd-aac9-9510fb615b7b_1100x550.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!AN1M!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3ddaf6ed-2158-4ddd-aac9-9510fb615b7b_1100x550.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!AN1M!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3ddaf6ed-2158-4ddd-aac9-9510fb615b7b_1100x550.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!AN1M!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, 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Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55332719525/in/dateposted">here</a><strong>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><h3>Meera Nanda on Science as Liberation</h3><p>In terms of what Ophelia Benson and Jeremy Stangroom call the &#8220;Third World&#8221; and much else, we can ask if science causes (or creates) oppression or does it bring about liberation? (There are many other binaries which could have been chosen here.) Many academics and theorists in the Western world (from Michel Foucault and Jean-Fran&#231;ois Lyotard to Rupert Sheldrake) think it causes specific political hegemonies and helps embed political power. Yet many people in the Third World believe it brings about liberation.</p><p>In their book <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=dee7e4ee5df43762&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4_L-UF99VpAiBfjlciOsbAnwP4sA%3A1781532451539&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Iwcwave6HoqFhbIPtPuxyAc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajAVMzbkqvF35yuoq8bfsf-dFzOiARaA&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgARIiydQAFihDnAAeACQAQCYAYwBoAHLBKoBAzQuMrgBAcgBAPgBAZgCBqACjgXCAgoQIxiABBiKBRgnwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICChAjGJ4GGPAFGCfCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDMy4zoAf8WrIHAzMuM7gHjgXCBwcyLTUuMC4xyAc3gAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Why Truth Matters</a></em>, the philosophers <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=ophelia+benson&amp;rlz=1C1UEAD_en-GBGB1189GB1190&amp;oq=Ophelia+Benson&amp;gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDwgAECMYJxjjAhiABBiKBTIPCAAQIxgnGOMCGIAEGIoFMgwIARAuGCcYgAQYigUyBwgCEAAYgAQyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgFEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgGEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBwgHEAAY7wUyCggIEAAYogQYiQUyBwgJEAAY7wXSAQkzODEyajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBS4YAOm-kBNK&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8">Ophelia Benson</a> and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Jeremy+Stangroom&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6P4SqhFyxFrqHyvAx3yrrNugSuPw%3A1781526486120&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=1u8vaoO6BMqlhbIPpuOvwQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_95i3_EGa7Jagyqz1ZLssF2lVipat3&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiD_fCqn4mVAxXKUkEAHabxK2gQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Jeremy+Stangroom&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBKZXJlbXkgU3Rhbmdyb29tMgoQIxiABBiKBRgnMgQQIxgnMgUQLhiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGBYYHhgKMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogRIpwlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBiQGgAYkBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKdAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHqRCyBwMwLjG4B50BwgcDMy0xyAcQgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Jeremy Stangroom</a> (henceforth &#8220;B &amp; S&#8221;) focus on the case of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Meera+Nanda&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4OCfu2Y8OIlk61VVGu454AtPpsIg%3A1781488547346&amp;ei=o1svarncFOmEhbIP3JSQgQE&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj5uaSAkoiVAxVpQkEAHVwKJBAQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Meera+Nanda&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiC01lZXJhIE5hbmRhMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMhAQIxjwBRjJAhiABBiKBRgnMgoQLhhDGIAEGIoFMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYigUYQzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMhcQLhiABBiKBRiXBRjcBBjeBBjfBNgBAUjWQlCSE1jLPHACeAGQAQCYAWCgAc4HqgECMTO4AQPIAQD4AQGYAg-gAo4JwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBhAAGAcYHsICCBAAGAgYBxgewgIIEAAYBxgeGArCAgcQABiABBgNwgIHECMYsAIYJ8ICChAuGA0YsQMYgATCAgcQLhgNGIAEwgIHEC4YgAQYDcICChAuGIAEGIoFGEPCAg0QLhhDGLEDGIAEGIoFwgIQECMYyQIY8AUYgAQYigUYJ8ICCxAuGJECGIAEGIoFwgILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwHCAgsQLhivARjHARiABMICBRAuGIAEwgILEC4YgAQYigUYkQKYAwCIBgGQBga6BgYIARABGBSSBwQxMi4zoAfywwKyBwQxMC4zuAf8CMIHBjItNS4xMMgHpAGACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Meera Nanda</a><strong> </strong>when they write:</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Science for her was a liberation from the traditions and narrow opportunities available to most provincial women. When she moved to the USA and went for a second PhD, in philosophy of science, she was shocked to find herself &#8216;drowning in platitudes about cultivating the &#8216;alternative sciences&#8217; of women, non-Western peoples. and other &#8216;victims&#8217; of the modern age&#8217;.&#8221;</p></div><p>Meera Nanda (who&#8217;s an Indian historian and philosopher of science) sees science (or the scientific mind) as a means of liberation. Many Western academics and theorists see it as a creator of non-Western, as well as some Western, <em>victims</em>. Some of them believe that women and non-Western cultures have their own sciences (in the plural) too.</p><p>Let Nanda speak for herself. Her <a href="https://www.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/people/mnanda">own introduction</a><strong> </strong>for <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+Max+Planck+Institute+for+the+History+of+Science&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n74cMUYbkHUdNXe7Hpletc1yOHiyw%3A1781488723125&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=U1wvasy_BeuxhbIPisLRqQM&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9qYwyBw2PgSsmHJnKAQP__chubk5jf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiMtYvUkoiVAxXrWEEAHQphNDUQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+Max+Planck+Institute+for+the+History+of+Science&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IjNUaGUgTWF4IFBsYW5jayBJbnN0aXR1dGUgZm9yIHRoZSBIaXN0b3J5IG9mIFNjaWVuY2UyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjODFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFeoAFeqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACdZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH9AeyBwMwLjG4B3XCBwMzLTHIBxKACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">The Max Planck Institute for the History of Science</a> is ideal for getting at these issues:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;I am currently interested in the cultural history of science in India, from its early beginnings to the present. During my stay at MPIWG, I hope to work on my new book project, which critically examines the various strategies for harmonization (or &#8216;hybridization,&#8217; to use a postcolonial term) of scientific theories (from Copernican astronomy and Darwin&#8217;s theory of evolution to quantum physics) with spiritualist-idealist strains of Hinduism. My objective is to show how this kind of hybridization covers up contradictions and turns modern science into a source of legitimation for Hinduism and Hindu nationalism.&#8221;</p></div><p>Now take the case of the biologist and paranormal researcher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Rupert+Sheldrake&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6ogQHeW4tj_EGn-F2ISRy8gAtk-w%3A1781488817091&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=sVwvavzKA67s7M8PzZezuQs&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9qwWw7zzj9lAu_yE5bbvd_m67iJNqE&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi85_KAk4iVAxUuNvsDHc3LLLcQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Rupert+Sheldrake&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBSdXBlcnQgU2hlbGRyYWtlMgoQIxiABBiKBRgnMgoQIxjwBRieBhgnMgoQIxieBhjwBRgnMggQLhiABBixAzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEieCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFaoAFaqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACapgDAJIHAzAuMaAHnReyBwMwLjG4B2rCBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Rupert Sheldrake</a>.<strong> </strong>He <em>does</em> believe that there are non-Western sciences (if not, specifically, women&#8217;s<strong> </strong>science). For example, he <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+science+delusion&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n56j4oS0X0V41uBpV1dPTFypQFiaA%3A1781572214710&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=dqIwapmQKdqzhbIP1vLS2Qc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajCwhhLCNM4tXwZveFT3j7WBxn-a_iH8&amp;oq=The+Scienc&amp;gs_lp=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-V7Ehr-2-LpIHBDEwLjGgB5qxAbIHAzkuMbgHtwbCBwcyLTUuNS4xyAdigAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;In almost every other sphere of human life, there is not one but many points of view. [&#8230;] Only in the realm of science can we still find the old ethos of monopoly, universality and absolute authority that used to be claimed by the Roman Catholic Church.&#8221;</p></div><p>Then Sheldrake is more specific:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;There are many medical systems, including osteopathy, acupuncture, naturpathy and homeopathy, but only one kind, mechanistic medicine, is labelled &#8216;scientific&#8217; [&#8230;].&#8221;</p></div><p>In much of Sheldrake&#8217;s writings, religion and &#8220;spirituality&#8221; hover in the background. So it&#8217;s not a surprise that he believes the following about the future:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;As the sciences free themselves from the constrictions of materialism, many new possibilities arise. And many of them raise new possibilities for dialogues with religious traditions.&#8221;</p></div><p>Sheldrake believes that Western science creates victims. He sees himself as the main victim (or &#8220;heretic&#8221;). Other victims are paranormal researchers, practitioners and theorists of alternative medicine, and &#8220;ordinary people&#8221; (i.e., because science is &#8220;elitist and undemocratic&#8221;).</p><p>It must be said that you don&#8217;t need to take science to be a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Platonic+form&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n67jJh-6sPUPWLav3LEjcqOmLP45Q%3A1781524701942&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=3egvauuGN5S-hbIPus7aqAk&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_27WmzxTNpHYNcgcv2Hepe3p65TsoP&amp;ved=0ahUKEwir6Y_YmImVAxUUX0EAHTqnFpUQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Platonic+form&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1QbGF0b25pYyBmb3JtMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSOkIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAY8BoAGPAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACmwGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB54FsgcDMC4xuAebAcIHAzMtMcgHCYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Platonic form</a> (i.e., Science) to have a problem with this<strong> </strong>relativism and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=postmodern+scepticism&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n48BXiVrinWDyfiZkhnQVLpFTGQig%3A1781524837265&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ZekvatC5Dc_AhbIPhZHS2QQ&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_3dcBGKh0b_0DcBkorYe2l9mfnADgh&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiQgNOYmYmVAxVPYEEAHYWINEsQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=postmodern+scepticism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVwb3N0bW9kZXJuIHNjZXB0aWNpc20yBRAAGIAEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVI5whQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBvwGgAb8BqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoALHAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHyQGyBwMwLjG4B8cBwgcDMi0xyAcEgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">postmodern scepticism</a>. Just as the philosopher David Chalmers doesn&#8217;t believe that the word &#8216;peace&#8217; can have as its meaning &#8216;ham sandwich&#8217;, so anything does not go when it comes to the word &#8216;science&#8217;.</p><p>Sheldrake is just my own example, whom I highlight because he isn&#8217;t the usual suspect&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;a postmodern theorist.</p><p>B &amp; S highlight all this in an explicitly political way when they conclude in the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=99e589f3edfeb530&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4VEmE-7hhqGBm8wc99i4U6XeuM8w%3A1781511302214&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hrQvatWWCpyBhbIPleHQsQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_ClrF_RMPolm8wNqb2umE_6o4_20h1&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARImTFQAFjbEXAAeACQAQCYAWSgAfIDqgEDNS4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIGoAKlBMICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDNS4xoAe5YLIHAzUuMbgHpQTCBwUyLTUuMcgHKIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following way</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The situation she confronted was rich in ironies: benevolent &#8216;friends&#8217; of Third World people helping the reactionary, the rich and the powerful fasten the chains more firmly on women, lower castes, and secularists in India. Intellectuals, &#8216;in their despair over the world they find themselves in, have helped deliver the people they profess to love-the non-Western masses, the presumed victims of &#8216;Western science&#8217; and modernity-to the growing forces of hatred, fascism, and religious fanaticism.&#8221;</p></div><p>Of course, we need to be given more details on B &amp; S&#8217;s political thesis above. Specifically, on exactly how <em>Western intellectuals</em> help the <em>reactionary, the rich and the powerful</em> <em>fasten the chains on women </em>and<em> </em>the poor. As it is, B &amp; S do provide their readers with lots of details elsewhere. But what we do know, even only from this short passage, is that Western science is deemed, by many Western academics and theorists, to actually <em>help the reactionary, the rich and the powerful</em> of the Third World to chain women and the poor to their roles. Yet, as we&#8217;ve just seen, Meera Nanda takes the exact opposite position: the embrace of science is the embrace of liberation.</p><h3>Western Intellectuals and the Third World</h3><p>B &amp; S <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=99e589f3edfeb530&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4VEmE-7hhqGBm8wc99i4U6XeuM8w%3A1781511302214&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hrQvatWWCpyBhbIPleHQsQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_ClrF_RMPolm8wNqb2umE_6o4_20h1&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARImTFQAFjbEXAAeACQAQCYAWSgAfIDqgEDNS4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIGoAKlBMICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDNS4xoAe5YLIHAzUuMbgHpQTCBwUyLTUuMcgHKIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">wonder why</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[f]or some reason Western intellectuals, and many non-Western too, have decided that people in the Third World do not want or like freedom or change [&#8230;].&#8221;</p></div><p>What if some Third World people <em>don&#8217;t</em> like freedom or change, at least not the Western versions of these things? Do B &amp; S simply assume that they do?</p><p>To generalise, think here about the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22neo-conservative%22&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7Vf74P_GZtgllh9oLXrJWmQRUJGA%3A1781489181148&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=HV4vapL9Bt2skdUPpqfL2Q8&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9sLf3zd7hKPHXUTlKtmGW6VL9ZOgRI&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjS_76ulIiVAxVdVqQEHabTMvsQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22neo-conservative%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhIibmVvLWNvbnNlcnZhdGl2ZSIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIGEAAYHhgKSNoJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAV-gAV-qAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJwmAMAkgcDMC4xoAe8BbIHAzAuMbgHcMIHAzMtMcgHDYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;neo-conservative&#8221;</a><strong> </strong>assumption that all Third World peoples (at least those the neo-cons deemed to live under oppressive regimes) <em>do</em> want (Western?) freedom and change. [See <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism#Leo_Strauss_and_his_students">here</a>.] Now think about those academics and theorists who think the opposite. Of course, it all depends on specifics. Some Third World people do want freedom and change; others don&#8217;t. Again, it depends on how freedom and change are fleshed out.</p><p>The passage continues:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[T]hat &#8216;authentic&#8217; Third World people prefer ancient communal ties and oneness with the earth.&#8221;</p></div><p>Here too, <em>some</em> Third World people do <em>prefer communal ties and oneness with the earth</em>. Others don&#8217;t. Or, rather, some may prefer communal ties, but not care too much about oneness with the earth. Or they may prefer oneness with the earth, but not care too much about communal ties.</p><p>Many academics and theorists in the West <em>do</em> believe that many&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even most&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;Third World people prefer communal ties<em> and </em>oneness with the earth. Whether that&#8217;s a romantic view or not is another issue.</p><p>B &amp; S then become way more rhetorical about Western intellectuals. They <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=99e589f3edfeb530&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4VEmE-7hhqGBm8wc99i4U6XeuM8w%3A1781511302214&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hrQvatWWCpyBhbIPleHQsQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_ClrF_RMPolm8wNqb2umE_6o4_20h1&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARImTFQAFjbEXAAeACQAQCYAWSgAfIDqgEDNS4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIGoAKlBMICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDNS4xoAe5YLIHAzUuMbgHpQTCBwUyLTUuMcgHKIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">inform their readers</a> that such theorists</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;tell [people in the Third World] to be what they were born, and stay what they were born, on pain of being accused of inauthenticity and mental colonization&#8221;.</p></div><p>It can be doubted that these Westerners have ever been so explicit that they literally tell Third World people to <em>be what they were born</em>. However, that doesn&#8217;t stop them from being inexplicit about these matters. And it doesn&#8217;t stop elites in the Third World (or those who&#8217;ve been educated in the West) from adopting these attitudes. (They often have.) What&#8217;s more, Third World elites, either newly in the West or at home, have certainly accused people in their own communities of <em>inauthenticity</em> or <em>mental colonisation</em>.</p><p>Now let&#8217;s place all this in an historical and philosophical context, as B &amp; S do. The best way of doing so is to focus on <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ludwig+Wittgenstein&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7vWRYGVf5TjHqhUnu8EwqrF5XHEw%3A1781489303744&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=l14vasaPK6_o7M8P_-KNqQI&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9sp6wjUMNBam4543z9pGIKREcA_-GD&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGt_nolIiVAxUvNPsDHX9xIyUQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ludwig+Wittgenstein&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhNMdWR3aWcgV2l0dGdlbnN0ZWluMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjIIEC4YgAQYsQMyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEiMC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFZoAFZqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACapgDAJIHAzAuMaAHmxGyBwMwLjG4B2rCBwMzLTHIBw2ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ludwig Wittgenstein</a>&#8217;s notion of a<strong> </strong><em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=language+games+wittgenstein&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6aLGG_lUeVUNQd1bmvQ5JP15iYoA%3A1781489357205&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=zV4vaunICovX7M8PzuS4mQc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9s3ULCmMuSWth3-ieqZt8TmJLPORfn&amp;oq=language+game&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1sYW5ndWFnZSBnYW1lKgIIADIKEAAYgAQYigUYQzIKEAAYgAQYigUYQzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESKMcUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVCgAVCqAQExuAEByAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJhmAMAkgcBMaAHlwWyBwExuAdhwgcDMy0xyAcNgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">language game</a></em>.</p><h3>Wittgenstein&#8217;s Language Games and Kuhn&#8217;s Paradigms</h3><p>Firstly, take the idea that non-Western cultures can be judged by scientific standards and values. Now take the alternative idea that other cultures may have their own &#8220;sciences&#8221; in the plural. <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=philosophical+investigations&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6dgMQBNkMiQ6CFXwqqst6NSRzdyw%3A1781572483208&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=g6MwasKLCsL-7M8Py9DF6QM&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajCxk1Fuux_6Ss1oSDludbFN83Hu0_Dz&amp;gs_ssp=eJzj4tDP1TcwrbAwN2D0kinIyMzJL84vyMhMTsxRyMwrSy0uyUxPLMnMzysGAAfbDkc&amp;oq=Philosophical+In&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBQaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIEluKgIIADILEC4YkQIYgAQYigUyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIoUpQyAdYhDRwAngAkAEAmAF_oAG9CaoBBDE1LjK4AQHIAQD4AQGYAhOgAskKqAIKwgIHECMY6gIYJ8ICDRAjGPAFGJ4GGOoCGCfCAgoQIxiABBiKBRgnwgIKEC4YgAQYigUYJ8ICERAuGIAEGIoFGJECGMcBGNEDwgILEC4YgAQYigUYkQLCAg4QLhiABBiKBRixAxiDAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIOEC4YgAQYsQMYxwEY0QPCAgQQIxgnwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICChAAGIAEGIoFGEPCAg0QLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgIQEC4YgAQYigUYQxjHARjRA8ICDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQPCAggQABiABBixA8ICChAAGIAEGBQYhwLCAgcQABiABBgNwgIGEAAYHhgNwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYBRgeGA2YAyDxBTbVEqW6e-f0kgcEMTcuMqAHpKQBsgcEMTUuMrgHogrCBwgyLTE4LjAuMcgHboAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">This</a> is how Wittgenstein has both helped and hindered here:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The form of life is the frame of reference we learn to work within when trained in the language of our community; learning that language is thus learning the outlook, assumptions, and practices with which that language is inseparably bound and from which its expressions get their meaning.&#8221;</p></div><p>As ever with Wittgenstein, this passage has been interpreted in multiple ways by multiple people. Having just said that, it&#8217;s much clearer than many other passages by him. In fact, it&#8217;s so clear that interpretation is surely at a minimum here, and simple agreement <em>or</em> disagreement with it is at a maximum.</p><p><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5-sV63Pioaf6TxOCAp0zMD4cVcdA%3A1781489457474&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=MV8vavDtGpeIkdUPmaqZgAk&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9tQWM25Z5ny-z0sTBmgEoD-VSxN1HT&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiwyqCylYiVAxUXRKQEHRlVBpAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtUaG9tYXMgS3VobjIKECMYgAQYigUYJzIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEjdCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFdoAFdqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACb5gDAJIHAzAuMaAHoAuyBwMwLjG4B2_CBwMzLTHIBw-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Thomas Kuhn</a><strong> </strong>interpreted this passage (or passages like it) when he stated that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=thomas+kuhn+the+structure+of+scientific+revolutions&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7rbFzEJjhSzzwBhqG77VtvDqV2Yw%3A1781572493970&amp;ei=jaMwauzkOpOChbIPgpqN6Qw&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;gs_ssp=eJwFwdENgCAMBcD4qVN0AzBu4RaGlNAgbaSvur5325pGyjsefHk5DzQbl1OPpoTG5JhREJPJKnkRVkiVQpNfuwNi6j_ZNBey&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;the proponents of competing paradigms</a><strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=thomas+kuhn+the+structure+of+scientific+revolutions&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7rbFzEJjhSzzwBhqG77VtvDqV2Yw%3A1781572493970&amp;ei=jaMwauzkOpOChbIPgpqN6Qw&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;gs_ssp=eJwFwdENgCAMBcD4qVN0AzBu4RaGlNAgbaSvur5325pGyjsefHk5DzQbl1OPpoTG5JhREJPJKnkRVkiVQpNfuwNi6j_ZNBey&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp"> </a></strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=thomas+kuhn+the+structure+of+scientific+revolutions&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7rbFzEJjhSzzwBhqG77VtvDqV2Yw%3A1781572493970&amp;ei=jaMwauzkOpOChbIPgpqN6Qw&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;gs_ssp=eJwFwdENgCAMBcD4qVN0AzBu4RaGlNAgbaSvur5325pGyjsefHk5DzQbl1OPpoTG5JhREJPJKnkRVkiVQpNfuwNi6j_ZNBey&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">practice their trades in different worlds&#8221;</a>.</p><p>So just as we have many interpretations of Wittgenstein, so we now have many interpretations of Kuhn&#8217;s Wittgensteinian passage. Yet Kuhn was actually talking about science. That didn&#8217;t stop philosophers and theorists applying his ideas to almost everything under the sun.</p><p>Let&#8217;s apply it to science itself.</p><p>Don&#8217;t Wittgenstein&#8217;s words above have the consequence that what is science depends on the language game it&#8217;s embedded in? More linguistically, is it the case that what the word &#8220;science&#8221; means is dependent on the language game it&#8217;s embedded in? Thus, there may well be <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=women%27s+ways+of+knowing&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6MYDeL18i32HX4SoC8yAC90juSSQ%3A1781524171118&amp;ei=y-YvatXhBr_qhbIP9OegOA&amp;biw=1528&amp;bih=698&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiV84LblomVAxU_dUEAHfQzCAcQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=women%27s+ways+of+knowing&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiF3dvbWVuJ3Mgd2F5cyBvZiBrbm93aW5nMgsQLhiRAhiABBiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYFhgeGAoyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMhoQLhiRAhiABBiKBRiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBNgBAUjTT1CiCFjxQ3ABeAGQAQCYAbQCoAHXFqoBCDEuMTIuNC4xuAEDyAEA-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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">women&#8217;s science</a>, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=M%C4%81ori+science&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5S7z1QqJzf-4X8ojr-GkkEdnhgRg%3A1781524020251&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=NOYvaqv6DJCKhbIPi8nmgQk&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_0RJH33RueJF6VteM0DAaUOXyVK_cB&amp;ved=0ahUKEwir5IiTlomVAxUQRUEAHYukOZAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=M%C4%81ori+science&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5NxIFvcmkgc2NpZW5jZTIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGBYYHhgKMgYQABgWGB5I9w1QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBYKABYKoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmqYAwCSBwMwLjGgB-4GsgcDMC4xuAdqwgcDMi0xyAcHgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">M&#257;ori science</a>, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Nazi+science&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6qBYM2ILJib74Qe7JTRORuhdzkJQ%3A1781524071619&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Z-YvauDsIoqQ7_UPrc3m4Qk&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_0d5ka_ZOVNaLSSAFFEHGSjT4BJY4E&amp;ved=0ahUKEwigvMerlomVAxUKyLsIHa2mOZwQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Nazi+science&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxOYXppIHNjaWVuY2UyBRAAGIAEMggQABiABBjHAzIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgkQABgWGB4YxwNIxglQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBggGgAYIBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKNAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHiwOyBwMwLjG4B40BwgcDMi0xyAcFgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Nazi science</a>, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Marxist+science&amp;sca_esv=f2c5f67995325226&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5Hmz1FktLlEdMBcLVrT7FPJmtr7A%3A1781524118438&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=luYvasvtF7Tp7_UP7Zqw6AI&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_0pgdyoaURcV9Ig-rO6wAfYUz75LZv&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjLkPHBlomVAxW09LsIHW0NDC0Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Marxist+science&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9NYXJ4aXN0IHNjaWVuY2UyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IsglQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBiAGgAYgBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKWAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH9QWyBwMwLjG4B5YBwgcDMy0xyAcKgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Marxist science</a>, and so on. Rupert Sheldrake (mentioned earlier) certainly thinks so. (He wouldn&#8217;t include &#8220;fascist science&#8221; in his own personal list of sciences.)</p><p>B &amp; S comment on this. However, rather than talking about sciences in the plural, they talk about &#8220;knowledges&#8221; in the plural. They write:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;It is just very easy to employ this kind of argument in order to demonstrate that the &#8216;knowledges&#8217; produced by indigenous people are every bit as valid, &#8216;in their own way&#8217;, as the knowledge produced by Western science.&#8221;</p></div><p>Of course, this passage (at least when taken on its own) isn&#8217;t that helpful because B &amp; S need to explain the word &#8216;valid&#8217; and the phrase &#8216;in their own way&#8217;. For a start, if we go down the relativist road, these so-called <em>knowledges</em> may be valid <em>according to these cultures</em>, but still not be examples of science.</p><h3>Peter Winch as Extreme Wittgensteinian</h3><p>Science and relativism have just been mentioned, and B &amp; S <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=99e589f3edfeb530&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4VEmE-7hhqGBm8wc99i4U6XeuM8w%3A1781511302214&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hrQvatWWCpyBhbIPleHQsQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_ClrF_RMPolm8wNqb2umE_6o4_20h1&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARImTFQAFjbEXAAeACQAQCYAWSgAfIDqgEDNS4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIGoAKlBMICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDNS4xoAe5YLIHAzUuMbgHpQTCBwUyLTUuMcgHKIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">conclude</a> by noting where they believe all this leads:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The threat is, rather, relativism. Put simply, if the scientific form of life runs up against an alternative, incommensurate form of life, perhaps one rooted in religious commitment, then there is no further justification that a scientist can offer for the primacy of scientific truth other than the fact it is truth in terms of the standards and conventions of science.&#8221;</p></div><p>The Wittgensteinian philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Peter+Winch&amp;sca_esv=1d2bc8c14a52b799&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4V8DEcjBRGHGaERsemjSGgvWTjxA%3A1781489656187&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=-F8vaq7RCevZ7M8Pu7Hn4AI&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai9uCC4_Ky3_pV_6nuBqnXIHXzzsqsJi&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiurYGRloiVAxXrLPsDHbvYGSwQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Peter+Winch&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtQZXRlciBXaW5jaDIKEC4YgAQYigUYJzIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEidDlAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFioAFiqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACdZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH3g6yBwMwLjG4B3XCBwMzLTHIBw-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Peter Winch</a> agrees that <em>scientific forms of life run up against alien alternatives</em>, and thus there is <em>no further justification</em> for science. In <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+truth+matters%2C+by+jeremy+stangroom+and+ophelia+benson&amp;sca_esv=99e589f3edfeb530&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4VEmE-7hhqGBm8wc99i4U6XeuM8w%3A1781511302214&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hrQvatWWCpyBhbIPleHQsQY&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAai_ClrF_RMPolm8wNqb2umE_6o4_20h1&amp;oq=Why+Tr&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZXaHkgVHIqAggAMgQQIxgnMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARImTFQAFjbEXAAeACQAQCYAWSgAfIDqgEDNS4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIGoAKlBMICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIQEAAYgAQYigUYQxixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIEEAAYA8ICCBAuGIAEGLEDmAMAkgcDNS4xoAe5YLIHAzUuMbgHpQTCBwUyLTUuMcgHKIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">his own words</a>, at least according to B &amp; S,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;there is therefore little point in trying to understand the beliefs of a culture which is radically alien to the Western scientific tradition&#8221;.</p></div><p>(Think here of Wittgenstein writing:<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Philosophical+Investigations&amp;sca_esv=a2c62370e27fa41d&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4ncRZX8T_1dSIokwzoUP3WPSOuKA%3A1781572634409&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=GqQwao7OFoiakdUP1s-SgAc&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajCyKuqzje8Gvpxr8sD8mf7DqTQIrHwC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiOw42gy4qVAxUITaQEHdanBHAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Philosophical+Investigations&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhxQaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIEludmVzdGlnYXRpb25zMgoQLhiABBiKBRgnMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESKwJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAUygAUyqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJcmAMAkgcBMaAH3gmyBwExuAdcwgcDMy0xyAcKgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;If a lion could talk, we could not understand him.&#8221;</a>)</p><p>Peter Winch seems to have gone further than Wittgenstein on all this. (Alternatively, perhaps his examples are simply more straightforward and political.)<strong> </strong>According to B &amp; S:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[O]ne would just run slap bang into a fundamental incommensurability.&#8221;</p></div><p>What Winch says is probably correct. But what has his position to do with facts and truths? Is it a fact, for example, that possessing the heads of one&#8217;s enemies means possessing their spirits too? Is it true that &#8220;Jews use Muslim blood for rituals&#8221;, as many people in some Muslim cultures believe? Perhaps those latter Muslim cultures aren&#8217;t &#8220;radically alien&#8221; enough for Winch&#8217;s position; so we can treat them differently to the cultures of head hunters. But where is the line drawn between a <em>radically alien</em> culture and simply a <em>different</em> culture? Moreover, does that line, if it exists at all, matter in this debate about facts and truths?</p><p>In any case, exactly why can&#8217;t we understand the beliefs of a culture which is radically alien to our own? Isn&#8217;t this what anthropologists do? Moreover, much has been written about alien cultures by historians, anthropologists, philosophers, scientists, etc. Surely this constitutes at least some degree of <em>understanding</em>.</p><p>More to the point, isn&#8217;t there a conflation here between <em>understanding</em> a culture and <em>agreeing</em> with its beliefs? And how does all this impact on the issue of trans-cultural <em>agreement </em>or<em> disagreement</em>?</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Philip Goff as a Philosophy Entrepreneur With a Taste for Cash]]></title><description><![CDATA[In this piece, I'm using the kind of approach that many other people have used on "evangelical preachers", "Tories", etc.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/philip-goff-as-a-philosophy-entrepreneur</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/philip-goff-as-a-philosophy-entrepreneur</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2026 10:37:02 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!eaCh!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2df25ff6-1569-4775-9118-0eac51d410ad_960x964.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!eaCh!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2df25ff6-1569-4775-9118-0eac51d410ad_960x964.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!eaCh!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!eaCh!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2df25ff6-1569-4775-9118-0eac51d410ad_960x964.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Image from Wiki Commons. Source <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Philip+Goff+%28philosopher%29&amp;title=Special%3AMediaSearch&amp;type=image">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>[This piece has used the work of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deepseek&amp;sca_esv=6a5035b5182b329e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsaYGUKVGKne1FtynDmkVeUo3XUXg%3A1787048818166&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=cjOEao-KB9KWhbIP6-z-qAM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoRBgk1T9TgHunK-dOJxXqOOeZLBkNji&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiPi4DQ-6mWAxVSS0EAHWu2HzUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deepseek&amp;gs_lp=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-VbIHAzQuNLgH4wXCBwUyLTcuMcgHJYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Deepseek</a>.]</p><p>On <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Philip+Goff&amp;sca_esv=6a5035b5182b329e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvRMWSnYHcOU5h8HkzyrMfFVSZ4pQ%3A1787048868566&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=pDOEavamIL66hbIPucXW-A0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoRBtFwhYNT0F-CIc53P0tJ08nfWKN78&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj2iIXo-6mWAxU-XUEAHbmiFd8Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Philip+Goff&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtQaGlsaXAgR29mZjIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIEECMYJzILEC4YkQIYgAQYigUyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIxQhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBc6ABc6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACgAGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7kMsgcDMC4xuAeAAcIHAzMtMcgHCoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Philip Goff</a>, Professor of Philosophy at <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Durham+University&amp;sca_esv=6a5035b5182b329e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntQwlRmVRGqz5q4msKExbUkF6WYxg%3A1787048901883&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=xTOEap-aM5GI-d8P4_XvuQ8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoRB1bwXD1JWaLcpfVl-wEu8z8QL-teo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjfkPb3-6mWAxURRP4FHeP6O_cQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Durham+University&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFEdXJoYW0gVW5pdmVyc2l0eTIIEC4YgAQYsQMyCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyCBAAGIAEGLEDMgUQABiABDILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwEyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIiQlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBdKABdKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACf5gDAJIHAzAuMaAH8QqyBwMwLjG4B3_CBwMzLTHIBwiACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Durham University</a>. Goff is a prolific author (including bestsellers), runs a Substack, co&#8209;hosts a YouTube channel (<em>Mind Chat</em>), has a solo YouTube channel, writes for mainstream outlets, gives many interviews, and maintains a Patreon page.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>The central question is: How much does he actually earn, and what does his monetisation strategy reveal about his conduct?</p><h3>The Financial Floor (Salary)</h3><p>Even without any media income, Goff&#8217;s professorial salary at a Russell Group university like Durham puts him on &#163;70,000&#8211;&#163;85,000 per year. That is more than double the UK median full&#8209;time income of ~&#163;32,900. His salary alone places him in the top 10&#8209;15% of earners, providing a secure financial bedrock.</p><h3>The Media Portfolio (Substack &amp; YouTube)</h3><p>His platforms have been located:</p><ul><li><p>Substack (<code>philipgoff.substack.com</code>) &#8211; over 2,000 subscribers. Even with a modest 5&#8209;10% paid conversion, this could generate &#163;6,000&#8211;&#163;19,000 annually.</p></li><li><p>YouTube (Mind Chat)&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;~1,520 subscribers, ad revenue likely &#163;1,000&#8211;&#163;3,000.</p></li><li><p>Solo YouTube (<code>@philipgoffphilosophy</code>) &#8211; ~1,360 subscribers, ad revenue similar or slightly lower.</p></li></ul><p>Combined, his known media income adds roughly &#163;8,000&#8211;&#163;25,000 per year&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;a significant supplement, but not a replacement for his salary.</p><h3>The Patreon Mystery</h3><p>A Patreon link appeared (<code>patreon.com/cw/PhilipGoffPhilosophy</code>) but returned a 403 error. It has 0 posts. Rather than a content hub, it&#8217;s used purely as a payment/donation link &#8211; a &#8220;tip jar&#8221; for supporters, offering no exclusive rewards.</p><p>Goff ignores requests and questions from students and non&#8209;academic philosophers if he cannot monetise them. This turns the Patreon into a paywall for his attention, not just a passive donation channel.</p><p>Goff&#8217;s public engagement is conditional on monetisability. Free content builds his brand, but interaction (replies, guidance, mentoring) is reserved for paying or otherwise &#8220;valuable&#8221; contacts.</p><p>These areas are explored:</p><ul><li><p>Academic workload models&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;public engagement counts as &#8220;scholarship&#8221;, so Goff&#8217;s media work isn&#8217;t seen as moonlighting; it&#8217;s seen as formally recognised labour.</p></li><li><p>University benefit&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;Durham gains prestige and talent attraction, even if most of his audience doesn&#8217;t associate him with the university.</p></li><li><p>Interview payments&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;major outlets (BBC, Guardian, etc.).</p></li></ul><h3>Conclusion</h3><p>The financial picture is clear: Goff is comfortably well&#8209;off from his salary alone, and his media work adds a meaningful second layer. The open question&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and the heart of this piece&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;is whether his monetisation model has corrupted the open, collegial ethos that universities and philosophy departments claim to uphold.</p><p>Finally, at the outer bounds, it is at least possible that Philip Goff earns as much as &#163;518,000 a year. What he actually earns will probably be below that. But by how much?</p><div><hr></div><p></p><p> <strong>Notes:</strong></p><p>(1) Grok says: "Goff notes personal circumstances (young children) and treats that income as family money rather than solely personal funds available to underwrite extra public outreach."... Goff has used that logic against replying to non-academics.</p><p><strong>(2) </strong>Goff is a self-described socialist. His frequent emphasis on his family is precisely what many socialists in the past have had a problem with. Goff is displaying his "bourgeoise" sensibility, while still being a socialist.</p><div><hr></div><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[A German Philosopher Says, 'Don't Read Historical Philosophy!']]></title><description><![CDATA[Hanno Sauer argues that treating historical philosophy as philosophy is a waste of time. Does he have a point? Is Sauer's position original?]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/a-german-philosopher-says-dont-read</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/a-german-philosopher-says-dont-read</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2026 10:33:25 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg" width="1250" height="577" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fyGg!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff26e2b6a-288a-4cbd-8318-0774d297c955_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55166587925/in/album-72177720311036675">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><h4>British &amp; American vs German Philosophy Departments</h4><p>On a parochial level, the German philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hanno+Sauer&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsRI4ayT9JCTyH4GnK4v27RPVc1NQ%3A1786959064556&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=2NSCat_PHduOi-gP2pyJyQU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLi6GwG50TqFU-zF7jH2JyVWQylAOPB&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjfm5GiraeWAxVbxwIHHVpOIlkQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hanno+Sauer&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtIYW5ubyBTYXVlcjIEECMYJzINECMY8AUYngYYogcYJzINECMYogcYngYY8AUYJzIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI6QhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBlgGgAZYBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKnAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH3RSyBwMwLjG4B6cBwgcDMy0xyAcMgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Hanno Sauer</a> is arguing for something that was once a common position/situation within analytic philosophy departments from the 1940s to the late 1990s, at least in the UK and US. Sauer himself <a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0020174X.2022.2124542">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Rumor has it that a sign on Gilbert Harman&#8217;s office door at Princeton said: &#8216;History of philosophy? Just say no!&#8217;, borrowing a slogan first championed by Nancy Reagan in the &#8216;war on drugs&#8217;.&#8221;</p></div><p>[The American philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Gilbert+Harman&amp;sca_esv=3cb11f4b13d19c80&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuKrGdMSDF-1kZvwrQf3wuujUWdwA%3A1786961945262&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=GeCCapLnDci79u8Pj4OWyQ4&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLuKd28_kY4Uyx1D9_EZoNU0cOpcYgq&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjS1-P_t6eWAxXInf0HHY-BJekQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Gilbert+Harman&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5HaWxiZXJ0IEhhcm1hbjIFEC4YgAQyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkj7C1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFyoAFyqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKAAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH3wqyBwMwLjG4B4ABwgcDMy0xyAcLgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Gilbert Harman</a> <em>did</em> have this message on his office door.]</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>There&#8217;s also<strong> </strong>a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP9znCxhHcQ">remark</a> (dated 1978, but going back to the 1950s) from <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=A.J.+Ayer&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntEvEN6jL8768XwAgYLoOFprmzLmw%3A1786959190427&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=VtWCat_2F5udhbIP_qKWkQI&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLjZlr6VbyktZxgVcaj1HplUR_d8KtF&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjf-ZXeraeWAxWbTkEAHX6RJSIQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=A.J.+Ayer&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IglBLkouIEF5ZXIyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI4wlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBbaABbaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACkQGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7oLsgcDMC4xuAeRAcIHAzQtMcgHHYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">A.J. Ayer</a><strong> </strong>in which he said that most of his students hadn&#8217;t read any philosophy that was more than twenty years old:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The danger is that philosophy will become parochial, that people will only read what has been written in the last twenty years.&#8221;</p></div><p>[Ayer wasn&#8217;t entirely against this parochiality.]</p><p>Personally, I experienced the same thing as Ayer. When I was a postgraduate, I noted that most of the philosophy postgraduates knew very little about historical philosophy&#8230; unless, that is, it was their speciality. (They would have studied at least some examples of historical philosophy as undergraduates.) I remember students who hadn&#8217;t read much&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or anything&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that was older than twenty years old. (One postgrad&#8217;s book collection consisted entirely of works by David Lewis.)</p><p>In terms of research, this 20-year-rule was a default position simply because in order to prove one&#8217;s <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=research+credentials&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQns-Dhet5ctCaXUnOFUtU62_9-G2Cw%3A1786959233775&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=gdWCauLxLI3DhbIPwpbr-A8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLjkSXnfmZQ9TcFhrWCj7P5cFx0aRZp&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiituvyraeWAxWNYUEAHULLGv8Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=research+credentials&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRyZXNlYXJjaCBjcmVkZW50aWFsczIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkiaC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFwoAFwqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ6mAMAkgcDMC4xoAfiBbIHAzAuMbgHesIHAzItMcgHB4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;research credentials&#8221;</a>, the average postgraduate simply didn&#8217;t have the time to study&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even read&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;what every well-known dead philosopher said on subject or issue <em>X</em>.</p><p>Yet none of these philosophy postgrads ever offered the arguments that Sauer himself offers. Their own reasons for concentrating on new and trendy philosophy were almost all about academic success and their future careers. (For example, they knew almost everything about Robert Brandom, and nothing at all about Aristotle.) So much so that when some of these postgrads became philosophy professors, they would have become so without much&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even any&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;knowledge of historical philosophy. In that sense, then, Sauer is simply offering a philosophical defence of what was the case in many philosophy departments, at least in the UK!&#8230;</p><p>However, the situation is different in Germany.</p><p>When British and American universities purged the history of philosophy from the postgrad menu, German universities didn&#8217;t do the same thing. Even though such German universities adopted analytic methods, they still retained a commitment to studying historical philosophy <em>qua</em> philosophy.</p><p>Thus, the conclusion here is that all readers of Sauer&#8217;s paper (<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Sauer%27s+paper+%27The+End+of+History%27&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsokM4tQ6XnWMl50lZD09alDXjDbQ%3A1786960948978&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=NNyCavfqOMi2i-gPguXNoQM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLqRNoNazJTLNlAmSlnQlxYdNr33MrB&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj31NqktKeWAxVI2wIHHYJyMzQQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Sauer%27s+paper+%27The+End+of+History%27&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiJTYXVlcidzIHBhcGVyICdUaGUgRW5kIG9mIEhpc3RvcnknMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVI0TZQAFjXMHAAeACQAQCYAbsBoAGSBaoBAzAuNLgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCBKACqQXCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIkFGKIEmAMAkgcDMC40oAezCLIHAzAuNLgHqQXCBwUwLjMuMcgHDIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8216;The End of History&#8217;</a>) must note that he&#8217;s talking about German, not British or American, philosophy departments. Yet he never mentions these national differences in his paper.</p><h4>Sauer&#8217;s Sexy Thesis</h4><p>To get his point across, Sauer makes the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Personally%2C+I+have+made+a+habit+of+not+heeding+the+ethical+advice+of+Adolf+Eichmann%2C+Ted+Bundy%2C+and+various+of+my+family+members.%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntlyHBwis6jmqRLbNgiNqw-3BqpCQ%3A1786959303396&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=x9WCavrPFfDh7_UPo4j8uAk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLj1yYgFnZ0oN8cziB0y_dFM7wm9S7T&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi6z4SUrqeWAxXw8LsIHSMEH5cQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Personally%2C+I+have+made+a+habit+of+not+heeding+the+ethical+advice+of+Adolf+Eichmann%2C+Ted+Bundy%2C+and+various+of+my+family+members.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IoMBIlBlcnNvbmFsbHksIEkgaGF2ZSBtYWRlIGEgaGFiaXQgb2Ygbm90IGhlZWRpbmcgdGhlIGV0aGljYWwgYWR2aWNlIG9mIEFkb2xmIEVpY2htYW5uLCBUZWQgQnVuZHksIGFuZCB2YXJpb3VzIG9mIG15IGZhbWlseSBtZW1iZXJzLiJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcAgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following statement</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Personally, I have made a habit of not heeding the ethical advice of Adolf Eichmann, Ted Bundy, and various of my family members.&#8221;</p></div><p>Sauer then explains himself:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;But upon looking at the moral views held by many of the most prominent authors in the history of philosophy, one often cannot help but shudder. [ ] the list of historical philosophers who held sexist, racist and other discriminatory views would be too long to recount here.&#8221;</p></div><p>Later, Sauer <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hanno+Sauer%3A+%22In+general%2C+if+we+find+out+that+a+person+holds+monstrous+moral+beliefs+like+that%2C+we+tend+not+to+listen+to+them+at+all%2C+much+less+treat+them+as+experts+on+what%27s+good+or+bad.%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnu72BP6MlOsub41La9zCz5WKfY7Qg%3A1786959393539&amp;ei=IdaCau29IPybhbIPrtrXuQw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwit0oS_rqeWAxX8TUEAHS7tNccQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hanno+Sauer%3A+%22In+general%2C+if+we+find+out+that+a+person+holds+monstrous+moral+beliefs+like+that%2C+we+tend+not+to+listen+to+them+at+all%2C+much+less+treat+them+as+experts+on+what%27s+good+or+bad.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAivQFIYW5ubyBTYXVlcjogIkluIGdlbmVyYWwsIGlmIHdlIGZpbmQgb3V0IHRoYXQgYSBwZXJzb24gaG9sZHMgbW9uc3Ryb3VzIG1vcmFsIGJlbGllZnMgbGlrZSB0aGF0LCB3ZSB0ZW5kIG5vdCB0byBsaXN0ZW4gdG8gdGhlbSBhdCBhbGwsIG11Y2ggbGVzcyB0cmVhdCB0aGVtIGFzIGV4cGVydHMgb24gd2hhdCdzIGdvb2Qgb3IgYmFkLiJIAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcAgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;In general, if we find out that a person holds monstrous moral beliefs like that, we tend not to listen to them at all, much less treat them as experts on what&#8217;s good or bad.&#8221;</p></div><p>These examples show Sauer&#8217;s ethical bias and his own personal academic specialities:<strong> </strong>ethics, metaethics, and political philosophy. And wasn&#8217;t this kind of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=presentism&amp;sca_esv=2624ea7b8d622041&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvkO2n14JIkJbEO7kXyd6zvSPmVwg%3A1786949755955&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=e7CCap3tN-6MhbIPu4C30Q4&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoK-i_3sGs1IOrZVwZ0rrNOVJmmKPRUC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjdlrvLiqeWAxVuRkEAHTvALeoQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=presentism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgpwcmVzZW50aXNtMgQQIxgnMgQQIxgnMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI5BxQAFieFnAAeACQAQCYAXmgAboGqgEDOC4yuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIKoAL7BsICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICDRAjGPAFGJ4GGKIHGCfCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICEBAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAg0QIxiiBxieBhjwBRgnwgIEEC4YJ8ICEBAuGEMYgwEYsQMYgAQYigXCAg4QABiABBiKBRiRAhixA8ICDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQPCAggQLhiABBixA8ICDRAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQPCAggQABiABBixA8ICBxAAGIAEGAqYAwCSBwM4LjKgB79tsgcDOC4yuAf7BsIHBzAuMy42LjHIBy-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">presentism</a> the reason why activists took action against David Hume&#8217;s statue at Edinburgh University? [See <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=why+did+student+activists+took+action+against+David+Hume%27s+statue+at+Edinburgh+University&amp;sca_esv=2624ea7b8d622041&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnurzBI8LlWM452ZqZl944qI4xzxwg%3A1786949908653&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=FLGCavqzJfCni-gP8vnb2AQ&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoK_JEOpYmGBw_4ZFJ2gf83i8AfUEOX8&amp;aep=22&amp;udm=50&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj6jaOUi6eWAxXw0wIHHfL8FksQteYPCCA&amp;cs=0&amp;oq=why+did+student+activists+took+action+against+David+Hume%27s+statue+at+Edinburgh+University&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ill3aHkgZGlkIHN0dWRlbnQgYWN0aXZpc3RzIHRvb2sgYWN0aW9uIGFnYWluc3QgRGF2aWQgSHVtZSdzIHN0YXR1ZSBhdCBFZGluYnVyZ2ggVW5pdmVyc2l0eTIEECEYCkifO1AAWIwMcAB4AJABAJgBcqAB8AKqAQMzLjG4AQHIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAliYAwCSBwExoAfQC7IHATG4B1jCBwMyLTHIBwOACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz&amp;atvm=2&amp;mstk=AUtExfCGtDW7-kg1k67xxvaagXnFrIwbBR4y5UYKi7YiJo8maAddAYMc-lGYzHB7Ak7B1GPGR19SLPsozX6r4oqhAUOLSNy9Bz2jMcI4IjLA-mDMAF_ineZrY46BcE2dYEagSHs1963oJ3SPzgWOD_Twn9lGFCezBdmqiMw0RuTqgdMSB3iPsIknTz1Q9JIFEKG2Jff3M9HjQ1VycJgp5mIgQrYv1FH-lOwMSFn5c91slKmsW-tQ38cOKDBgUuvyGEl8jE3Ek4EjqgRokK-gDiLd04UqQLTU82nFpl69B5Y6i8nTOGurAS64GUJvLb1yzB28tAqtRRwL4-1TDw&amp;csuir=1&amp;mtid=ILGCatHkEo-khbIPybzhwQ0">here</a>.]</p><p>What&#8217;s more, Sauer <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22%27sexy%27+research+results+with+grand+claims+that+defy+common+sense%E2%80%8A-%E2%80%8Asuch+as+esse+est+percipi,+there+is+no+self,+no+one+knows+anything,+and+so+on%E2%80%8A-%E2%80%8Aattract+attention,+while+common+sense+truths+such+as,+say,+%27it+is+often+difficult+to+control+one%27s+behavior%27+generate+much+less%C2%A0buzz.%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;aep=22&amp;cs=0&amp;prmd=ivns&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvaiQmystSQheKNN5_5Lmi8mUXtxg:1786959513705&amp;source=lnms&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjogKv4rqeWAxUeWEEAHRoOGlQQ0pQJegQIBhAF">claims</a><strong> </strong>that when it comes to <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22publication+bias%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsgpXbw4agpRPR1ndRAu-lHaVu5_A%3A1786959463027&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ZtaCauqQPI7-7_UP9u7FoQw&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLkd_kazub_oq8PNs08ph5d54xvnmiC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjq25PgrqeWAxUO_7sIHXZ3McQQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22publication+bias%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhIicHVibGljYXRpb24gYmlhcyIyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIzghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBaKABaKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACdpgDAJIHAzAuMaAH9geyBwMwLjG4B3bCBwMzLTHIBwqACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;publication bias&#8221;</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;&#8216;[S]exy&#8217; research results with grand claims that defy common sense&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;such as esse est percipi, there is no self, no one knows anything, and so on&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;attract attention, while common sense truths such as, say, &#8216;it is often difficult to control one&#8217;s behavior&#8217; generate much less buzz.&#8221;</p></div><p>Couldn&#8217;t it be said Sauer&#8217;s own position (i.e., of rejecting historical philosophy) is &#8220;sexy&#8221; and that it &#8220;def[ies] common sense&#8221;? (Of course, common sense may not have a position on historical philosophy.)</p><h4>The History of Ends of History</h4><p>The philosophical idea that historical philosophy is useless goes back a long time. Yet Sauer sees his position as being original. Or at least he argues that no one as yet has <em>systematically</em> defended this position.</p><p>Take the case of Francis Bacon, Thomas Hobbes, Rene Descartes and the many other philosophers in the 16th and 17th centuries who rejected the<strong> </strong>Scholastics. Schopenhauer who claimed that most philosophy is mindlessly <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=intertextuality&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvhgPfosX_MV5x2G6Ez7rYdfBQ-UQ%3A1786961709795&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Ld-CasGFLtfq7_UPxZG24AM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLtPXUA6NBpCThFiOwp2zHnnYeN3LuM&amp;oq=intertextual&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxpbnRlcnRleHR1YWwqAggAMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESO8WUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXOgAXOqAQMwLjG4AQHIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoABmAMAkgcDMC4xoAftBLIHAzAuMbgHgAHCBwMzLTHIBwmACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">intertextual</a></em><strong> </strong>(obviously, not his own word)<strong> </strong>in that it endlessly bounces off what has been written in the past. If we jump forward to the logical positivists, they had a very disdainful view of historical philosophy. Wittgenstein even claimed to have read no previous philosophers.</p><p>Indeed, many of these philosophers believed that, to use <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22the+significant+philosophers+of+the+past+%5B+%5D+said+an+enormous+amount+of+blatantly+false+and+risible%C2%A0things%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnu7YDO5Iq1TCKYHeTrVxiy3Cr7iZg%3A1786959576182&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=2NaCatT6COuJ9u8Pt8r8-AY&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLk6K1DDb8NLi2R-lX0iCii7i3IKekw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjUxo6Wr6eWAxXrhP0HHTclH28Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22the+significant+philosophers+of+the+past+%5B+%5D+said+an+enormous+amount+of+blatantly+false+and+risible%C2%A0things%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Im0idGhlIHNpZ25pZmljYW50IHBoaWxvc29waGVycyBvZiB0aGUgcGFzdCBbIF0gc2FpZCBhbiBlbm9ybW91cyBhbW91bnQgb2YgYmxhdGFudGx5IGZhbHNlIGFuZCByaXNpYmxlwqB0aGluZ3MiSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Sauer&#8217;s words</a>,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;the significant philosophers of the past [ ] said an enormous amount of blatantly false and risible things&#8221;.</p></div><p>Of course, these positions aren&#8217;t identical to Sauer&#8217;s! Sure. However, surely they&#8217;re in the same ballpark.</p><p>Is Sauer&#8217;s claim to be the first philosopher<strong> </strong>to systematically criticise studying historical philosophy trivial? This is meant in the sense that all he seems to be saying is that no previous philosopher has rejected historical philosophy in exactly (or precisely) the same way he has.</p><p>On the specific claim that other philosophers have rejected historical philosophy, but not in a <em>systematic </em>way. Perhaps Sauer means that no previous philosopher wrote a paper that&#8217;s equivalent to his own &#8216;End of History&#8217;. I don&#8217;t mean equivalent in in <em>any</em> sense, but in his own epistemic sense. </p><p>Sauer may have lots of interesting things to say. However, his way of rejecting historical philosophy just happens to use techniques and propagate views he used and propagated before he wrote his paper in 2022. In that sense, he&#8217;s doing exactly what Rudolf Carnap did in the 1930s (see later).</p><p>Let me sum this up:</p><blockquote><p><strong>(1)</strong> &#8220;No one has done it my way&#8221;: Sauer isn&#8217;t the first to reject the philosophical past. (Descartes, Bacon, Hobbes, Carnap, Wittgenstein, etc. all did that.) However, he may be the first to reject it using contemporary metaphilosophical and data-driven epistemic norms.<br><strong>2)</strong> &#8220;No one has targeted this exact group&#8221;: Carnap (more of him later) targeted German idealists and existentialists. Sauer targets those contemporary professors who treat the philosophical canon as a toolkit for today&#8217;s problems.</p></blockquote><p>And again:</p><blockquote><p><strong>1)</strong> Rudolf Carnap (in the 1930s): Stop doing history! Philosophy must be reduced to formal logic.<br><strong>2)</strong> Hanno Sauer (2022): Stop doing history! Philosophy must be reduced to empirical psychology and data.</p></blockquote><h4>Rudolf Carnap and Hanno Sauer</h4><p>Rudolf Carnap&#8217;s 1932 article,<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%27The+Elimination+of+Metaphysics+Through+Logical+Analysis+of+Language%27&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsLWSJ4JICMUQqO2susvO4y8n590g%3A1786959671426&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=N9eCasjGF4CD9u8PpKDWgAw&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLlRwkBtPzxpE2JesvBee-TN-QltLAg&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiIvsPDr6eWAxWAgf0HHSSQFcAQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%27The+Elimination+of+Metaphysics+Through+Logical+Analysis+of+Language%27&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IkUnVGhlIEVsaW1pbmF0aW9uIG9mIE1ldGFwaHlzaWNzIFRocm91Z2ggTG9naWNhbCBBbmFseXNpcyBvZiBMYW5ndWFnZScyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSJ8QUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVygAVyqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJnmAMAkgcDMC4xoAf6BLIHAzAuMbgHZ8IHAzMtMcgHCIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8216;The Elimination of Metaphysics Through Logical Analysis of Language&#8217;</a> (<em>&#220;berwindung der Metaphysik durch logische Analyse der Sprache),</em> is very much in the mould of Sauer&#8217;s own paper.</p><p>Carnap&#8217;s paper was a peer-reviewed academic journal article (published in <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erkenntnis">Erkenntnis</a></em>). Its target was historical metaphysics. Its conclusion was that the past statements of historical metaphysicians are meaningless, and that they invented <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=pseudo-problems&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnv8RZ28weAdcRph7vWkvZbTB1Bn3A%3A1786961653279&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9d6CataDD6GuhbIP57KCwAc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLtBe30oV6XLy9dG8P1IESIPa3JJwRa&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW0sb0tqeWAxUhV0EAHWeZAHgQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=pseudo-problems&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9wc2V1ZG8tcHJvYmxlbXMyBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yCBAAGAUYHhgKMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHjIGEAAYCBgeMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHkjRCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF8oAF8qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKKAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHsAWyBwMwLjG4B4oBwgcDMy0xyAcKgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">pseudo-problems</a></em>.</p><p>Sauer&#8217;s &#8216;The End of History&#8217; (2022) is a peer-reviewed academic journal article (published in <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=inquiry+philosophy+journal&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntI_tpHhqGezVLZ7fGIi9GtLPYWJQ%3A1786961609614&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=yd6CatPbItuxhbIP6LrouQs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLs2ZD_FIsTrg0GIl8o7c3n6QcWE6dt&amp;oq=Inquiry+%28philoso&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBJbnF1aXJ5IChwaGlsb3NvKgIIADIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSLEyUABY6CRwAHgAkAEAmAFnoAH5BaoBAzkuMbgBAcgBAPgBAvgBAZgCCqACtwbCAg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgUQABiABMICCBAAGBYYHhgKmAMAkgcDOS4xoAeKN7IHAzkuMbgHtwbCBwcwLjEuOC4xyAcrgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Inquiry</a></em>). Its target is historical philosophy when it&#8217;s used as a way to solve current issues. Its conclusion is that historical texts are epistemically dead and mostly wrong. Sauer&#8217;s goal is to pivot philosophy into an data-driven, interdisciplinary science.</p><p>Carnap dismissed past metaphysics as literally &#8220;meaningless&#8221;. Sauer argues that historical philosophy is perfectly meaningful, but simply epistemically dead and factually wrong.</p><p>Carnap&#8217;s <em>historical </em>position particularly seems to square with <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22%5BW%5De+have+good+reasons+for+thinking+that+historical+authors+were+not+equipped+with+the+theoretical+sophistication+nor+the+empirical+knowledge+required+for+their+writings+to+still+be+relevant+to+contemporary+debates.%22&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnscKbZK3a_d-Onhltrm66FcsethmQ%3A1786959780738&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=pNeCaub8KuDq7_UPt5SuMA&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLltH-j-f5fqDxBKkOwOwzozMwSAxgG&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjm3tP3r6eWAxVg9bsIHTeKCwYQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22%5BW%5De+have+good+reasons+for+thinking+that+historical+authors+were+not+equipped+with+the+theoretical+sophistication+nor+the+empirical+knowledge+required+for+their+writings+to+still+be+relevant+to+contemporary+debates.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6ItkBIltXXWUgaGF2ZSBnb29kIHJlYXNvbnMgZm9yIHRoaW5raW5nIHRoYXQgaGlzdG9yaWNhbCBhdXRob3JzIHdlcmUgbm90IGVxdWlwcGVkIHdpdGggdGhlIHRoZW9yZXRpY2FsIHNvcGhpc3RpY2F0aW9uIG5vciB0aGUgZW1waXJpY2FsIGtub3dsZWRnZSByZXF1aXJlZCBmb3IgdGhlaXIgd3JpdGluZ3MgdG8gc3RpbGwgYmUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gY29udGVtcG9yYXJ5IGRlYmF0ZXMuIkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwCACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following words</a> from Sauer:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[W]e have good reasons for thinking that historical authors were not equipped with the theoretical sophistication nor the empirical knowledge required for their writings to still be relevant to contemporary debates.&#8221;</p></div><p>Later, Sauer states the following:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;It is unlikely that historical authors were right about anything because they lacked the scientific and/or empirical information required for it, since so many philosophical claims or theories depend on scientific and/or empirical propositions.&#8221;</p></div><h4>Conclusion: Wittgenstein&#8217;s Spirit Is Inside Sauer</h4><p>Let&#8217;s offer some more detail on Wittgenstein, who is &#8220;historical&#8221;, according to Sauer.</p><p>In the biography, <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ludwig+Wittgenstein%3A+The+Duty+of+Genius&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvUzIB5dqbOooMDqFwLUnMoCPMMcw%3A1786958753811&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=odOCaqj0Lreki-gP3svtmAk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLhsao35DDgFr5bsKs9fV9KQ3FihcaE&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjoyPyNrKeWAxU30gIHHd5lG5MQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ludwig+Wittgenstein%3A+The+Duty+of+Genius&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IidMdWR3aWcgV2l0dGdlbnN0ZWluOiBUaGUgRHV0eSBvZiBHZW5pdXMyBRAuGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgNI4ApQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBiwGgAYsBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKYAZgDAOIDBRIBMSBAkgcDMC4xoAfEB7IHAzAuMbgHmAHCBwMzLTHIBwmACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ludwig Wittgenstein: The Duty of Genius</a></em>, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ray+Monk&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnttU5JYAIMUWncKrkjlZkZ2h7x2og%3A1786958791539&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=x9OCarnOHpLri-gP6eel8Q4&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLh1_T48wO74w_CAv9IQzzlJ0FzCTIh&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj5zfufrKeWAxWS9QIHHelzKe4Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ray+Monk&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IghSYXkgTW9uazIKEC4YgAQYigUYQzIKEC4YQxiABBiKBTIKEAAYgAQYigUYQzILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwEyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgARI7QtQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBYqABYqoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAnCYAwCSBwMwLjGgB4cQsgcDMC4xuAdwwgcDMy0xyAcLgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ray Monk</a> writes that Wittgenstein proudly claimed never to have read a single word of Aristotle. This went along with his hatred for traditional academic philosophy. Wittgenstein&#8217;s peers also noted that his bookshelves were entirely devoid of philosophy books. Instead, he preferred detective fiction, journals, and religious texts.</p><p>What is important here is Wittgenstein&#8217;s belief that traditional philosophy was not a body of historical knowledge to be learned (somewhat like Sauer): it was an <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Wittgenstein%27s+reference+to+the+%22itch%22+that+can+be+found+in+philosophical+problems.&amp;sca_esv=2dac52584d2a654e&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvVJI3ULjbb2rUGq0uqMJmy6Ep4Eg%3A1786958838624&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9tOCauXUI_3Ki-gPgdXtoA8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaoLiBizY_S8o05JZvJXkzOaAbHENhsTm&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjlp7W2rKeWAxV95QIHHYFqG_QQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Wittgenstein%27s+reference+to+the+%22itch%22+that+can+be+found+in+philosophical+problems.&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IlNXaXR0Z2Vuc3RlaW4ncyByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gdGhlICJpdGNoIiB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbiBwaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIHByb2JsZW1zLkia0AFQAFjBygFwAngAkAEAmAGMAaABhjWqAQQ3Ny43uAEDyAEA-AEBmAIjoAKSGcICDRAjGKIHGJ4GGPAFGCfCAgQQIxgnwgIKEC4YgAQYigUYQ8ICEBAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAhAQLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDGIMBwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICChAAGIAEGBQYhwLCAg0QIxjwBRieBhiiBxgnwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAg0QLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIFEC4YgATCAg0QLhhDGLEDGIAEGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAsICCxAuGJECGIAEGIoFwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgYQABgWGB7CAgsQABiABBiKBRiGA8ICBBAhGBXCAgQQIRgKmAMAkgcEMjcuOKAHwKACsgcEMjcuOLgHkhnCBwk2LjEwLjE4LjHIB2eACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;itch&#8221;</a> to be cleared up through logical clarity.</p><p>To use an idea of Saint Paul: the <em>spirit</em> of Wittgenstein seems to be inside Sauer. However, clearly the <em>letter</em> of Wittgenstein isn&#8217;t.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Nothing is Something: Some Heavy Philosophy]]></title><description><![CDATA[(i) Introduction]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/nothing-is-something-some-heavy-philosophy</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/nothing-is-something-some-heavy-philosophy</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2026 07:35:09 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!NOvu!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9a007784-e02c-4048-86f1-42b5417f68a9_1100x576.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><hr></div><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!NOvu!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9a007784-e02c-4048-86f1-42b5417f68a9_1100x576.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!NOvu!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!NOvu!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9a007784-e02c-4048-86f1-42b5417f68a9_1100x576.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p><strong>(i) Introduction<br>(ii) The Grammar of the Word &#8220;Nothing&#8221;<br>(iii) The History of Nothing<br>(iv) Parmenides on Nothing<br>(v) Russell and Quine on Nothing<br>(vi) Martin Heidegger on Nothing<br>(vii) Graham Priest on Nothing</strong></p><div><hr></div><h4><strong>Opening Note</strong></h4><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png" width="826" height="475" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/caa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:475,&quot;width&quot;:826,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ebEj!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcaa004ef-c7a2-440f-a4c7-e136143a8db4_826x475.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>As will be seen throughout this essay, the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; has, at times, been capitalised in a Heideggerian (or Platonic) manner.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>Why?</p><p>The statement</p><blockquote><p><strong>It&#8217;s the case that really nothing is important.</strong></p></blockquote><p>when expressed as, say, psychological and personal advice, is different to the statement</p><blockquote><p><strong>It&#8217;s the case that nothing is important.</strong></p></blockquote><p>when expressed as a statement about ontology.</p><p>Basically, I borrowed this capitalisation from<strong> </strong>John D. Barrow. He, presumably, capitalised the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; for roughly the same reason.</p><div><hr></div><p><em>Nothing</em>?</p><p>What is it?</p><p>If we deal with the English word &#8220;nothing&#8221;, then, etymologically, it begins life simply as &#8220;no thing&#8221;. It&#8217;s also been defined as <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22the+complete+absence+of+anything%22&amp;sca_esv=6a9cfcd5d693b1e0&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn094sTVaYc1mKMxGD045OiHuzUfIfw%3A1708498962206&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=EqDVZea0CoPThbIPppWisAY&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdWuIqkO2z4zo20YBwLACP36fAz4aIe7&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjmhfXN7ruEAxWDaUEAHaaKCGYQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22the+complete+absence+of+anything%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiIidGhlIGNvbXBsZXRlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgYW55dGhpbmciMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIswlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBcKABcKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;the complete absence of anything&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Of course, even these basic beginnings are problematic.</p><p>The following four questions can now be asked:</p><blockquote><p><strong>(1) &#8220;No thing&#8221; in which place?<br>(2) No thing at which time?<br>(3) The &#8220;complete absence of anything&#8221; everywhere? Or just somewhere?<br>Finally,<br>(4) The complete absence of everything at all times? Or just at certain times?</strong></p></blockquote><p>In any case, why has Nothing been so important in philosophy and religion?</p><p>The English cosmologist, theoretical physicist and mathematician <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow">John D. Barrow</a> (mentioned a moment ago) summed things up with the <a href="https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/355593/the-book-of-nothing-by-john-barrow/9781407072685">following passage</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;So much for these snippets of nothing. They show us nothing more than there is a considerable depth and breath to the contemplation of Nothing.&#8221;</p></div><p>We&#8217;ll see that the &#8220;considerable depth and breadth&#8221; on the subject of Nothing may well be largely down to the grammar of the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;. To put that another way. Perhaps there is <em>considerable depth and breadth </em>to Nothing because the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; is used in so many different ways by so many different people. This effectively means that Nothing can&#8217;t really be something specific even when believed to be <em>considerably deep and wide</em>.</p><p>John Barrow also <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Book_Of_Nothing/ZYL6bO0MpTUC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Eastern+philosophies+provided+habits+of+thought+in+which+the+idea+of+Nothing-as-something+was+simple+to+grasp+and+not+only+negative+in+its+ramifications%22&amp;pg=PP12&amp;printsec=frontcover">tells us that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Eastern philosophies provided habits of thought in which the idea of Nothing-as-something was simple to grasp and not only negative in its ramifications&#8221;.</p></div><p>This claim almost entirely depends on what Eastern philosophers took Nothing to be. After all, it turns out that they meant something very different by the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; to what many Western philosophers meant&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and still mean. Indeed, &#8220;nothing&#8221; is such a problematic word (at least when tackled philosophically) that different Eastern philosophers themselves will have meant different things by the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; (i.e., when this word is suitably translated into the relevant languages).</p><p>In any case, what&#8217;s just been said about the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; is also true of the words &#8220;consciousness&#8221;, &#8220;freedom&#8221;, &#8220;truth&#8221;,<strong> </strong>&#8220;justice&#8221;,<strong> </strong>&#8220;existence&#8221;, etc. It&#8217;s likely that &#8220;nothing&#8221; is even more problematic than these well-known<strong> </strong>cases.</p><h3>The Grammar of the Word &#8220;Nothing&#8221;</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png" width="1014" height="542" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:542,&quot;width&quot;:1014,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!weCy!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2894252d-fdd0-4a24-9196-a8deb1bd833b_1014x542.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>John Barrow waxes even more lyrically about Nothing in the <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22At+first%2C+such+questions+about+the+meaning+of+Nothing+seemed+hard%2C+then+they+appeared+unanswerable%2C+and+then+they+appeared+meaningless%3A+questions+about+Nothing+weren%27t+questions+about+anything.%22&amp;sca_esv=da34223ad1e5cd33&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=GV7TZfewM8yZhbIP_f2M-AI&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdNsKa1-tJaOx08HBQ699zfh8sRa-p0o&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi3ofe0x7eEAxXMTEEAHf0-Ay8Q4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22At+first%2C+such+questions+about+the+meaning+of+Nothing+seemed+hard%2C+then+they+appeared+unanswerable%2C+and+then+they+appeared+meaningless%3A+questions+about+Nothing+weren%27t+questions+about+anything.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IsMBIkF0IGZpcnN0LCBzdWNoIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhYm91dCB0aGUgbWVhbmluZyBvZiBOb3RoaW5nIHNlZW1lZCBoYXJkLCB0aGVuIHRoZXkgYXBwZWFyZWQgdW5hbnN3ZXJhYmxlLCBhbmQgdGhlbiB0aGV5IGFwcGVhcmVkIG1lYW5pbmdsZXNzOiBxdWVzdGlvbnMgYWJvdXQgTm90aGluZyB3ZXJlbid0IHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhYm91dCBhbnl0aGluZy4iSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following passage</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;At first, such questions about the meaning of Nothing seemed hard, then they appeared unanswerable, and then they appeared meaningless: questions about Nothing weren&#8217;t questions about anything.&#8221;</p></div><p>Perhaps much of this &#8220;paradoxical&#8221; and heavy stuff is largely down to grammar.</p><p>Yes! This view is very old-fashioned. </p><p>It&#8217;s old-fashioned because it dates back (in various ways) to Wittgenstein, the logical positivists, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_language_philosophy">&#8220;ordinary-language&#8221; philosophers</a>, etc. Of course, all these Dead Philosophers made their points about grammar, language and philosophy in very different ways. I make my own points in my own way.</p><p>On the other hand, Nothing <em>may well</em> be meaty and profound for the simple reason that it has featured so strongly in philosophy, theology and even in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology#Physical_cosmology">physical cosmology</a>.</p><p>Yet, despite that acknowledgment, perhaps the old questions about Nothing were (to use Barrow&#8217;s word again) &#8220;hard&#8221; primarily because of the grammar of the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;. As Wittgenstein put it (in his <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations">Philosophical Investigations</a></em>) about many other words pained over by philosophers for hundreds of years, when it comes to the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; (in this case), the following can be stated:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;A whole cloud of philosophy [is] condensed into a drop of grammar.&#8221;</p></div><p>All that said, sentences with the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; in it, and questions about Nothing, can&#8217;t be &#8220;meaningless&#8221; for the simple reason that they may not be questions about Nothing itself. Instead, they may largely be about the <em>word</em> &#8220;nothing&#8221;, as well as about how people use that word.</p><h3>The History of Nothing</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png" width="845" height="402" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:402,&quot;width&quot;:845,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Txd-!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6324a826-22b2-4e77-8e1f-04d8705d3d68_845x402.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>According to traditional<strong> </strong>Christianity, God created the world out of Nothing.<strong> </strong>Interestingly,<strong> </strong>John the Scot (or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Scotus_Eriugena">Johannes Scotus Eriugena</a>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;c. 815&#8211;877) argued that the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; (in this context at least) is synonymous with &#8220;God&#8221;. [Thus, God created the world out of God?]</p><p>Eriugena&#8217;s position displays the <em>semantic reality </em>of this overall issue.</p><p>So what about other philosophers?</p><p>Philosophers have denied that Nothing &#8220;exists&#8221;, and also stated that it does exist. Other philosophers have seen the entire issue of Nothing as a non-problem&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even as a <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22pseudo-problem%22&amp;sca_esv=6a9cfcd5d693b1e0&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0-jnitY5P7UU_O1Jo-PCrVMXbNmNA%3A1708499357012&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=nKHVZZrLO7CxhbIP5s2T2Ac&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdWvrWQf_rL-qyHNwjhrh7zIjeIm0W4l&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiaiZaK8LuEAxWwWEEAHebmBHsQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22pseudo-problem%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhAicHNldWRvLXByb2JsZW0iMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgYQABgeGA8yCBAAGAUYHhgPMggQABgFGB4YDzIGEAAYCBgeMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHkiOB1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFgoAFgqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;pseudo-problem&#8221;</a>.</p><p>On another tangent. This philosophical and religious interest in Nothing has been at least partly down to the <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_vacui_%28physics%29">horror vacui</a>.<strong> </strong></em><strong>(</strong>Put in plain English,<em><strong> </strong></em>the idea that<em><strong> </strong></em><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22nature+abhors+a+vacuum%22&amp;sca_esv=d3c1b391243a2b45&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0-5b1zj_mnyWinE-ZLR8CbDrEXpMw%3A1708792442252&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ehraZYKuDJm0hbIP_IiBoA0&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdooinZ8hiFk0Gg9OvjKFPfc_waaBKya&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiC04z0s8SEAxUZWkEAHXxEANQQ4dUDCBg&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22nature+abhors+a+vacuum%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhgibmF0dXJlIGFiaG9ycyBhIHZhY3V1bSIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgoQABiABBgUGIcCMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI9AhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBWqABWqoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmaYAwCSBwMwLjE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;nature abhors a vacuum&#8221;</a>.) An early version of this was displayed by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus">Leucippus</a> (early 5th century BC). To <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus">Leucippus</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Void_%28philosophy%29">&#8220;the void&#8221;</a> is the opposite of Being. In other words, the void is <em>not-Being</em>.</p><p>It should also be quickly noted here that, historically, many scientists believed that (empty) space is not &#8220;nothing&#8221;. Instead, they deemed it to be some kind of receptacle in which &#8220;material objects can be placed&#8221;.</p><p>Relatedly, scientists have also been much obsessed by the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Historical_understanding">vacuum</a> (or by vacuums-in-the-plural). Yet a vacuum (like the void) was always something very<strong> </strong>different from Nothing&#8230; Or was it?</p><p>It depends&#8230;</p><p>It depends on what the words &#8220;nothing&#8221; and &#8220;vacuum&#8221; are taken to mean in different contexts. It also depends on how these words are actually used.</p><p>This<strong> </strong>problem is captured in the <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22This+is+somewhat+reminiscent+of+early+philosophical+plenum+ideas%2C+and+means+that+vacuum+and+nothing+are+certainly+not+synonyms.%22&amp;sca_esv=a591636a69e92710&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0_PGexg71L-1v7QMj3QhcTkYpwmyw%3A1708563834371&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ep3WZdShFPaD9u8PtYyFwAY&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdarinjwZLZ4p5nmHkxwgEqS2nehxKl7&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjUxq-j4L2EAxX2gf0HHTVGAWgQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22This+is+somewhat+reminiscent+of+early+philosophical+plenum+ideas%2C+and+means+that+vacuum+and+nothing+are+certainly+not+synonyms.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IoEBIlRoaXMgaXMgc29tZXdoYXQgcmVtaW5pc2NlbnQgb2YgZWFybHkgcGhpbG9zb3BoaWNhbCBwbGVudW0gaWRlYXMsIGFuZCBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHZhY3V1bSBhbmQgbm90aGluZyBhcmUgY2VydGFpbmx5IG5vdCBzeW5vbnltcy4iSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following passage</a> about a related issue:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;This is somewhat reminiscent of early philosophical plenum ideas, and means that vacuum and nothing are certainly not synonyms.&#8221;</p></div><p>The word &#8220;vacuum&#8221; isn&#8217;t an acceptable synonym of the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; simply because there&#8217;s no fixed (or universal) definition of that latter word in the first place. And now we must also go all ontological and say that the <em>nature</em> <em>of Nothing</em> has been disputed for over two thousand years.</p><h3>Parmenides on Nothing</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png" width="520" height="677" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:677,&quot;width&quot;:520,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5-lU!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F93a64f77-c14e-4afa-aeab-e1b2b7547683_520x677.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>It&#8217;s best to start with the following philosophical position:</p><blockquote><p><strong>In order to refer to something, then that something must exist in some way.</strong></p></blockquote><p>The Greek philosopher <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides">Parmenides</a> (5th century BC) based his philosophy of Nothingness primarily on such a basic position. <a href="http://philoctetes.free.fr/parmenides.pdf">Parmenides argued that there can be no such thing as nothing</a> for the simple reason that to name it means that it must exist. And Nothing (unlike a stone or a person), he believed, can&#8217;t exist.</p><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png" width="825" height="425" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:425,&quot;width&quot;:825,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!iG94!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd5edcffc-4f54-4d4e-8db1-c9295097391b_825x425.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>John D. Barrow</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>John Barrow picked up on this when he<strong> </strong>wrote <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Nothing-John-D-Barrow/dp/0099288451">the following words</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[Parmenides] maintained that you can only speak about what is: what is not cannot be thought of, and what cannot be thought of cannot be.&#8221;</p></div><p>Light-heartedly, and to rely on <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/313956.The_Book_of_Nothing">Barrow again</a>, if Parmenides<strong> </strong>was right, then what about the following limerick by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hughes_Mearns">William Hughes Mearns</a>? -</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;As I was going up the stair, <br>I met man who wasn&#8217;t there. <br>He wasn&#8217;t there again today, <br>I wish, I wish he&#8217;d stay away.&#8221;</p></div><p>Less light-heartedly, what about this statement? &#8212;</p><blockquote><p><strong>Superman is sexy!</strong></p></blockquote><p>Or this one? &#8212;</p><blockquote><p><strong>God does not exist.</strong></p></blockquote><p>It seems obvious that we <em>can</em> refer to things which no longer exist. We can even refer to things which never existed. Sure, perhaps we can&#8217;t refer in any ordinary way&#8230; That&#8217;s if there is an ordinary way of referring.</p><p>So perhaps <em>existence</em> must be replaced by some kind of (capitalised) Being.</p><p>[The distinction between being and existence has been rejected by many philosophers. See <a href="https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Being_and_Existence">&#8216;Being and Existence&#8217;</a>.]</p><p>That said, in the cases of &#8220;Superman is sexy!&#8221; and other statements, neither existence nor Being are claimed in any direct way.</p><p>So what about the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;?&#8230;</p><p>Or what about Nothing <em>itself</em>?</p><p>According to this logic (or perhaps not), if we speak of &#8220;nothing&#8221;, then surely nothing must be&#8230; <em>something</em>. After all, we&#8217;ve named Nothing. Therefore it must exist (or have Being) as a&#8230; <em>something</em>. Alternatively put, I&#8217;ve used the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;. Therefore Nothing (not the <em>word</em> &#8220;nothing&#8221;) must exist (or have Being).</p><p>Let&#8217;s now go into more detail on Parmenides and his arguments.</p><h4><strong>Parmenides&#8217;s Argument</strong></h4><p>Parmenides&#8217; own positions are more convincing than they may at first seem.</p><p>In his scheme, not only is Nothing rejected, so too is the existence of historical facts or history itself.</p><p>The possibility of<strong> </strong>change is similarly rejected.</p><p>The following are three of his basic positions (i.e., it&#8217;s not an argument as such) on Nothing:</p><blockquote><p><strong>1) Nothing doesn&#8217;t exist.</strong></p><p><strong>2) To speak of a thing, is to speak of a thing which exists.</strong></p><p><strong>3) When one speaks of Nothing, one speaks of it as if it is something which exists.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Yet surely, in statements (1) to (3), Nothing has been spoken of (it has been <em>named</em>). Therefore, by Parmenides&#8217;s own light, surely either Nothing must exist, or he had no right to speak of it.</p><p>What about the events in the past or the past itself?</p><p>Parmenides&#8217;s position is very similar:</p><blockquote><p><strong>i) If we can&#8217;t speak of (or name) Nothing,</strong></p><p><strong>ii) then we can&#8217;t speak of (or name) the things or events of the past either.</strong></p><p><strong>iii) That&#8217;s because such events (or things) don&#8217;t exist.</strong></p><p><strong>iv) Therefore, when we refer to them, we&#8217;re referring to Nothing.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Here again there are references to Nothing, which Parmenides warned us against.</p><p>What about change, which Parmenides similarly rejected?</p><p>His rejection of change is strongly connected to his rejection of the past. The argument is as follows:</p><blockquote><p><strong>ia) If the past doesn&#8217;t exist,</strong></p><p><strong>ib) then only the present exists.</strong></p><p><strong>iia) Yet if only the present exists,</strong></p><p><strong>iib) then there can be no change from past to present, or from present to future.</strong></p><p><strong>iii) Therefore, there can be no change at all.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I&#8217;m not entirely sure if I&#8217;ve done justice to Parmenides in the formulations above. Alternatively, perhaps there&#8217;s a problem with the arguments themselves. [It&#8217;s hard to find Parmenides&#8217;s actual words, rather than writers and historians telling their readers what Parmenides believed.]</p><p>Firstly, i) (&#8220;The past doesn&#8217;t exist&#8221;) is taken to true without proof, argument, evidence, etc. That said, most arguments must&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and do&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;begin with unargued-for premises. Perhaps this is an example of that.</p><p>And there&#8217;s also the problem with the word &#8220;exist&#8221;. It&#8217;s never defined. Its meaning is simply assumed.</p><p>In any case, it seems that Parmenides&#8217; position was resurrected&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;if in a modified and grammatical (or linguistic) form&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;in the 20th century by Bertrand Russell.</p><h3><strong>Russell and Quine on Nothing</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png" width="432" height="498" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!BGiY!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Faf186a8f-bd41-4d77-963b-f3961272db00_432x498.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>In his 1918 paper <a href="https://philpapers.org/rec/RUSEAD">&#8216;Existence and Description&#8217;</a>, Bertrand Russell argued that in order for names to be names, then they must name&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or refer to&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;things which exist. So now take <a href="http://www.bethunecollege.ac.in/heritagejournal/journals/heritageJournalVolI2014/articles2014/On-NameDescriptionsAndExistence-Heritage2014.pdf">this passage</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The fact that you can discuss the proposition &#8216;God exists&#8217; is a proof that &#8216;God&#8217;, as used in that proposition, is a description not a name. If &#8216;God&#8217; were a name, no question as to existence could arise.&#8221;</p></div><p>That passage delivers a position that&#8217;s <em>fairly</em> similar to Parmenides&#8217;s own position. Russell&#8217;s argument, however, is different in that it&#8217;s based on language and semantics.</p><p>In detail. Russell, at the time, was reacting to the (as Quine once put it) <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22ontological+slums%22&amp;sca_esv=a591636a69e92710&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn09ZaEvZsMeG6jttiBV53ybiZCRl3g%3A1708564890570&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=mqHWZejQIIXZ7_UPrJK6kA8&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdavqinxtFFHztYkQCzXvTO34nNGkyCh&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjohYGb5L2EAxWF7LsIHSyJDvIQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22ontological+slums%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhMib250b2xvZ2ljYWwgc2x1bXMiMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIkFGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIxQ1QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBhwGgAYcBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;ontological slums&#8221;</a> of the Austrian philosopher <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexius_Meinong">Alexius Meinong</a> in which different objects and things were brought into being willy-nilly. (For example, the golden mountain and even <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonexistent_objects">the round square</a>.) However, Russell&#8217;s semantic philosophy simply seems stipulative (or a normative) in nature. That is, it&#8217;s strategically designed to quickly solve various ancient and modern philosophical problems. </p><p>This is where<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Van_Orman_Quine"> W.V.O. Quine</a> enters the philosophical fray.</p><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png" width="843" height="441" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Rf8r!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbbaefc42-7169-4452-b9ee-9242b5b7354e_843x441.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Quine had no problem at all with the naming of non-beings or non-existents. (Non-being and non-existence aren&#8217;t the same thing.)</p><p>In his <a href="https://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes/Phil209/Quine%20-%20On%20What%20There%20Is.pdf">&#8216;On What There Is&#8217;</a> of 1948 (some 30 years after Russell&#8217;s paper), Quine rejected Russell&#8217;s position. However, he put Russell&#8217;s position in the mouth of a certain McX, and uses the word &#8216;Pegasus&#8217; rather than the word &#8216;God&#8217;. Quine <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Metaphysics/SkyJEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22He+confused+the+alleged+named+object+Pegasus+with+the+meaning+of+the+word+%27Pegasus%27,+therefore+concluding+that+Pegasus+must+be+in+order+that+the+word+have+meaning.%22&amp;pg=PA11&amp;printsec=frontcover">wrote</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;He confused the alleged named object Pegasus with the meaning of the word &#8216;Pegasus&#8217;, therefore concluding that Pegasus must be in order that the word have meaning.&#8221;</p></div><p>Put simply. A name can have a &#8220;meaning&#8221; without it <em>referring</em> to something which exists, or even to something which never existed. Thus, Quine unties meaning from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference">reference</a>, whereas Russell primarily thought in terms of reference. (At the least, Russell tied a name&#8217;s meaning to its reference.)</p><p>Parmenides, as we&#8217;ve seen, made a similar mistake.</p><p>He didn&#8217;t think that a name could have a meaning without <em>the thing being named</em> also existing (or Being). However, we can speak of something that doesn&#8217;t exist because the naming of such an <em>x</em> doesn&#8217;t entail or even imply its existence. However, and in homage to Meinong (as well as to the philosopher David Lewis), Russell might then have asked us what kind of Being<em> </em>the named object (or thing) has.</p><p>Technically, Russell&#8217;s theory is an attempt to solve this problem by arguing that if a named <em>x</em> doesn&#8217;t exist (or have Being), then that name must be a <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22disguised+description%22&amp;sca_esv=1a30264c0409ca1f&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0-JU8odYpl_qZOpdERfsqZ8qCiegw%3A1708699470972&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Tq_YZfTZOL6jkdUPrYmR2Ao&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdi9XjYTP6o2KtZuawDx3PYZUdKC2tcF&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0uPjH2cGEAxW-UaQEHa1EBKsQ4dUDCBg&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22disguised+description%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhciZGlzZ3Vpc2VkIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIjIIEAAYFhgeGA8yCBAAGBYYHhgPMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgNI_wlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBWqABWqoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;disguised description&#8221;</a> or <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=denoting+phrase&amp;sca_esv=1a30264c0409ca1f&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0-ZNpBH6dmmA7gfDImGUslnQAGOBw%3A1708699474576&amp;ei=Uq_YZZLbItuuhbIPrd6okAo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSzNbJ2cGEAxVbV0EAHS0vCqIQ4dUDCBE&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=denoting+phrase&amp;gs_lp=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-QHCAg0QABiABBiKBRhDGMkDwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkgPCAioQABiABBiKBRiRAhhGGPkBGJcFGIwFGN0EGEYY-QEY9AMY9QMY9gPYAQPCAhMQABiABBiKBRiRAhixAxhGGPkBwgIOEAAYgAQYigUYkQIYsQPCAg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQABiABBixA8ICLRAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDGEYY-QEYlwUYjAUY3QQYRhj5ARj0Axj1Axj2A9gBA8ICChAAGIAEGEYY-QHCAgoQABiABBgKGLEDwgIHEAAYgAQYCsICJBAAGIAEGEYY-QEYlwUYjAUY3QQYRhj5ARj0Axj1Axj2A9gBA8ICDRAAGIAEGLEDGEYY-QHCAicQABiABBixAxhGGPkBGJcFGIwFGN0EGEYY-QEY9AMY9QMY9gPYAQPCAggQABgWGB4YCogGAZAGAroGBggBEAEYAboGBggCEAEYC7oGBggDEAEYEw&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">denoting phrase</a>. (In the case of the name &#8220;Pegasus&#8221;, the description would be &#8220;the fictional horse which has such and such characteristics&#8221;.)</p><h4>The Logical Positivists on &#8220;Meaningless&#8221; Statements</h4><p>In any case, the old logical-positivist way of classifying such sentences (e.g., &#8220;God does not exist&#8221;) as &#8220;meaningless&#8221; was way over the top. It was nothing less than diktat philosophy. That&#8217;s not because there actually is something Deep and Profound about what we call &#8220;nothing&#8221;, or because God does or does not exist. It&#8217;s because the logical positivist&#8217;s term &#8220;meaningless&#8221; is simply the end product of certain philosophical stipulations, rather than end result of arguments alone.</p><p>Quine, for one, realised this when he happily accepted that sentences such as &#8220;God does not exist&#8221; and &#8220;The unicorn is angry&#8221; are certainly <em>not</em> meaningless&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even if God and unicorns don&#8217;t exist!</p><p>Relatedly, the more obviously extreme &#8220;Pink ideas glide in and out of the vacuum&#8221; may be a silly sentence, but it&#8217;s not <em>meaningless</em>. Thus, the statement &#8220;Nothing is the most important subject&#8221; (or even Heidegger&#8217;s &#8220;The nothing nots&#8221;) isn&#8217;t necessarily meaningless. It may be silly or pretentious, but not <em>meaningless</em>.</p><p>Thus, we needn&#8217;t class &#8220;questions about nothing&#8221; as &#8220;meaningless&#8221; simply because Nothing doesn&#8217;t exist&#8230; <em>as a thing</em>&#8230;</p><p>That&#8217;s if Nothing doesn&#8217;t exist as a thing!</p><p>Now we can defend Parmenides&#8217;s position, as well as Russell&#8217;s, by attacking Heidegger&#8217;s.</p><h3>Martin Heidegger on Nothing</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png" width="621" height="593" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:593,&quot;width&quot;:621,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!tdV5!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F170da64b-5423-481c-af1c-24c20b0b4411_621x593.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Speaking (perhaps) ironically, can mere words<strong> </strong>bring <em>things</em> into existence?</p><p>What about the words &#8220;round square&#8221; or &#8220;the timplebums&#8221; bringing a round square or the timplebums into existence&#8230; or into Being? What about Chomsky&#8217;s well-known statement <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_Structures">&#8220;Colorless green ideas sleep furiously&#8221;</a>?</p><p>In any case, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger">Martin Heidegger</a> was perplexed by the fact that we can refer to Nothing.</p><p>Was Nothing brought into existence (or into Being) by virtue of people using the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;?</p><p>Heidegger <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22What+about+this+nothing%3F%22&amp;sca_esv=a591636a69e92710&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0_yEUQPnRawSweouBufQvjx5S7PWA%3A1708564673922&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=waDWZdiONsqM9u8Pmfq5kAo&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdau0eeXqESaH4ZTrfM-yBo2ly-SaGXr&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiY89mz472EAxVKhv0HHRl9DqIQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22What+about+this+nothing%3F%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhoiV2hhdCBhYm91dCB0aGlzIG5vdGhpbmc_IjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYFhgeGA8yCBAAGBYYHhgPMggQABgWGB4YDzIIEAAYFhgeGA9IuwtQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBaaABaaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz#ip=1">asked</a>, &#8220;What about this nothing?&#8221; He<strong> </strong>also <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Pathmarks/txD6l0y89m4C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22The+nothing%E2%80%8A-%E2%80%8Awhat+else+can+it+be+for+science+but+an+outrage+and+a+phantasm%3F%22&amp;pg=PA84&amp;printsec=frontcover">asked</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;The nothing&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;what else can it be for science but an outrage and a phantasm?&#8221;</em></p></div><p>Heidegger contended that<strong> </strong><a href="https://www.beyng.com/docs/MH-WhatIsMetaOrig.html">&#8220;[s]cience wants to know nothing of the nothing&#8221;</a>. [Note the definite article in the two words &#8220;the nothing&#8221;. No wonder John D. Barrow capitalised this word.]</p><p>According to Heidegger (who was critical of science for many other reasons too), science&#8217;s main sin is that it <a href="https://academic.oup.com/columbia-scholarship-online/book/23462/chapter-abstract/184540016?redirectedFrom=fulltext">&#8220;tries to express</a><strong><a href="https://academic.oup.com/columbia-scholarship-online/book/23462/chapter-abstract/184540016?redirectedFrom=fulltext"> </a></strong><a href="https://academic.oup.com/columbia-scholarship-online/book/23462/chapter-abstract/184540016?redirectedFrom=fulltext">its proper essence it calls upon the nothing for help&#8221;</a>. That is, science refers to (the) Nothing, yet it &#8220;rejects&#8221; Nothing. [One wonders why Heidegger singled out science in this respect. After all, all of us use the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; and refer to <em>nothing</em>.]</p><p>Of course, Heidegger himself doesn&#8217;t use the words &#8220;refer&#8221; and &#8220;reference&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;as analytic philosophers do. In other words, these terms weren&#8217;t found in his technical bag. However, surely when Heidegger asked &#8220;What about this nothing?&#8221;, he meant&#8230; <em>what</em>?</p><p>Well, we can refer to anything&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even to <em>nothing</em>. That&#8217;s unless the word &#8220;refer&#8221; is taken in some kind of strict philosophical sense, as Bertrand Russell did earlier.</p><p>Was Heidegger actually referring to the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Historical_understanding">vacuum</a>?</p><p>The Nothing has hardly featured at all in most physics, and not even in speculative physics. However, as we saw at the beginning of this essay, the vacuum has been. Yet the vacuum is actually worlds away from Nothing. More grammatically:</p><blockquote><p><strong>1) Do we &#8220;posit [nothing&#8217;s] being&#8221; when we use the word &#8220;nothing&#8221;?</strong></p><p><strong>2) Do we simply use the word &#8220;nothing&#8221; because it is useful in certain&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;indeed, in many&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;contexts?</strong></p></blockquote><p>What did Heidegger think? This:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;With regard to the nothing, question and answer alike are absurd.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>Again, it must be assumed that Heidegger meant &#8220;vacuum&#8221;.</p><p>Now for Graham Priest.</p><p>Priest&#8217;s position seems similar to Heidegger&#8217;s. This is hardly surprising since Priest is a fan of Heidegger, and he refers to him a fair few times in his papers, articles and books.</p><h3>Graham Priest on Nothing</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png" width="1100" height="607" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:607,&quot;width&quot;:1100,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gQlZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F552e63c4-cea1-407e-83cf-31e15575b16d_1100x607.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>The Australian philosopher of logic <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Priest">Graham Priest</a> (like Martin Heidegger)<strong> </strong>appears to believe (if only when viewed critically) that <em>words</em> <em>creates objects</em>&#8230; Of course, he doesn&#8217;t actually make that claim. So in Priest&#8217;s <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">own words</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;An object is anything you can refer to with a noun phrase, think about, quantify over.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>As with Heidegger earlier, the problem here is that the readers of this essay can make up new &#8220;noun phrase[s]&#8221; on the spot. So what about these examples (which start with a noun phrase)?&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;&#8220;The Something does&#8221;, &#8220;The bastules blinge&#8221;.</p><p>Thus, this is a liberal (or pluralist) position on objects in that Priest <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">concludes that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;so there are many objects, like Marcus, like Bond, like the City University of New York, like the Sun and so on all these things you can think about you can refer to&#8221;.</em></p></div><p>&#8230; As well as <em>objects</em> like Something and bastules.</p><p>This is a positively <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meinong%27s_jungle">Meinongian</a> conclusion. (Apart from the fact that <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexius_Meinong">Alexius Meinong</a><strong> </strong>never stressed&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and possibly even ignored&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;language.) However, as Bertrand Russell, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Rudolf Carnap and many others put it (if in their various ways), Priest and Heidegger might well have been &#8220;<a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22misled+by+language%22&amp;sca_esv=a591636a69e92710&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn08MfgPJUleo-5vPYi2v0nsUeEvuNA%3A1708564287436&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=P5_WZaXPGOqJ9u8PpaSAiAo&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdatTykZMth-Lz0BTLCfy1_9R9ngvHrs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjl6rT74b2EAxXqhP0HHSUSAKEQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22misled+by+language%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhQibWlzbGVkIGJ5IGxhbmd1YWdlIjIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIrgtQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBoAGgAaABqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">misled by language</a>&#8221;.</p><p>It must be added here that apart from language, Priest also emphasises <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantifier_%28logic%29">quantification</a>. However, this amounts to a very similar thing&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;quantification too <em>brings objects into existence</em>. As the American philosopher <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Putnam">Hilary Putnam</a> once put it: this is a case of the miraculous <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=P6jT10cRPXQC&amp;pg=PA233&amp;lpg=PA233&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CI+think+part+of+the+appeal+of+mathematical+logic+is+that+the+formulas+look+mysterious+%E2%80%93+you+write+backward+Es!#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CI%20think%20part%20of%20the%20appeal%20of%20mathematical%20logic%20is%20that%20the%20formulas%20look%20mysterious%20%E2%80%93%20you%20write%20backward%20Es!">&#8220;backward E&#8221;</a> (i.e., the existential quantifier &#8707;<strong>) </strong>doing its thing.</p><h4><strong>Quantifying </strong><em><strong>Nothing</strong></em></h4><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png" width="676" height="684" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:684,&quot;width&quot;:676,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!xNuA!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F127c0f4b-b7d1-4771-93e3-0eb3a11b1595_676x684.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Graham Priest refers to quantifying over both <em>everything</em> and <em>Nothing</em>. However, he has a position on quantification that appears to be at odds with the common one.</p><p>Usually, it&#8217;s thought that all acts of quantification have a specific <a href="https://logic.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/tutorial4/Tut4-04.htm#:~:text=The%20domain%20of%20quantification%20is,about%20when%20one%20uses%20quantifiers.">domain</a> in mind. Priest, on the other hand, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">believes that </a>&#8220;it&#8217;s okay to use a quantifier with the <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MRM6AAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA190&amp;lpg=PA190&amp;dq=its+okay+to+use+a+quantifier+with+the+widest+possible+scope&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=bpjw6gqx8q&amp;sig=ACfU3U2Uxfe6qiFwQUWWEH4B5o7qVFhvaw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiQ0qfgkIDnAhVwUBUIHT5JDzMQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=its%20okay%20to%20use%20a%20quantifier%20with%20the%20widest%20possible%20scope&amp;f=false">widest possible scope</a>&#8221;. In other words, it&#8217;s fine to quantify over literally <em>everything</em>. (This is like a quantificational version of<strong> </strong>Russell&#8217;s<strong> </strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_set">universal set</a>.)</p><p>Priest offers us a variation on the Parmenidean theme (discussed earlier) by arguing for the following:</p><blockquote><p><strong>i) If we &#8220;quantify over&#8221; any given x,</strong></p><p><strong>ii) then that x must be an &#8220;object&#8221; of some kind.</strong></p></blockquote><p>According to Priest, we also refer to (or quantify over) <em>everything</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;so that too must be an <em>object</em>. Yes, Priest says that &#8220;everything is an object&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;just like <em>Nothing</em>.</p><p>It&#8217;s then that Priest gets all <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dialethic&amp;sca_esv=1a30264c0409ca1f&amp;sxsrf=ACQVn0_IjBMZwI4g6JeX4hdlaoadHYPoBQ%3A1708699941383&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=JbHYZYrtE4qbhbIPhuya-AU&amp;iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZdi_NajOboAZoY6Qh1qTGQEf1Vj6OTxY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjKk5-o28GEAxWKTUEAHQa2Bl8Q4dUDCBg&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=dialethic&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IglkaWFsZXRoaWMyERAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDGIMBMg4QABiABBiKBRiRAhixAzIREAAYgAQYigUYkQIYsQMYgwEyDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDMg0QABiABBgKGLEDGIMBMg0QABiABBgKGLEDGIMBMg0QABiABBgKGLEDGIMBMgcQLhiABBgKMgcQABiABBgKMgcQABiABBgKSOMHUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWOgAWOqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">dialethic</a> by saying that Nothing is &#8220;not an object&#8221; too. This means that Priest applies the same logic to <em>Everything</em> as he does to <em>Nothing</em>. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">The following words </a>will make that clear:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;Everything is the mereological sum of every object </em>[]<em> If everything is the fusion of the sum of all objects, [then] what is nothingness? Nothingness is the sum of everything that isn&#8217;t an object because everything is an object. </em>[Nothingness is]<em> the sum of no things. What you get when you fuse together no things is exactly nothingness.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>In Priest &#8216;s logic, philosophers too have referred to Nothing. So Nothing must be what he calls an <em>object</em>.</p><p>Priest himself refers to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein">Ludwig Wittgenstein</a> (who said&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;remember&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that a &#8220;whole cloud of philosophy [can be] condensed into a drop of grammar&#8221;) and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna">Nagarjuna</a> on this issue. He says t<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">hat these two thinkers</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;tell</em>[]<em> you that something is ineffable; and then </em>[they]<em> explain why it&#8217;s ineffable&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;thereby talking about&#8221;.</em></p></div><p>That is certainly the case with the <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Logico-Philosophicus">Tractatus</a></em>, in which Wittgenstein discussed the <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_zJ-AgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT334&amp;lpg=PT334&amp;dq=Wittgenstein,+#v=onepage&amp;q=Wittgenstein,">&#8220;form of the world&#8221;</a>. We also had <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant">Kant</a>&#8217;s many references to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon">noumena</a>. (That&#8217;s even though Kant believed that <em>nothing</em> could be <em>known</em> about noumena.) All this is also true of the words &#8220;round square&#8221; or &#8220;the brick with a sense of humour&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;which I&#8217;ve just referred to!</p><p>To repeat. Priest goes all linguistic or grammatical when he says that <a href="https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4350/10b1e032060ee1cf45a7420d8b1e254f1363.pdf">&#8220;&#8216;nothing&#8217;, can also be a noun phrase&#8221;</a>. Basically, that&#8217;s because we can and do <em>talk</em> about it. More specifically, Hegel and Heidegger talked a lot about Nothing. As Priest puts it,<strong> </strong><a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=T80sAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA55&amp;lpg=PA55&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CWe+may+say+that+Hegel+and+Heidegger+both+wrote+about+nothing#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CWe%20may%20say%20that%20Hegel%20and%20Heidegger%20both%20wrote%20about%20nothing">&#8220;[w]e may say that Hegel and Heidegger both wrote about nothing&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Moreover, &#8220;nothing&#8221; is &#8220;not [always] a quantifier phrase&#8221;. In other words, this story isn&#8217;t all about counting or quantifying. It&#8217;s also about a <em>thing</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or an <em>object</em>.</p><p>One other way in which we can talk about Nothing is to note that &#8220;[w]e can say that [Hegel and Heidegger] said different things about it&#8221;. In addition, Christianity talks about Nothing in that (so Priest tells us) &#8220;the Abrahamic God is supposed to have created the world&#8221; out of Nothing.</p><p>So we can see that Priest is fully committed to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_beard">Plato&#8217;s Beard</a> in that (rhetorically or not) human sayings and writings bring <em>objects</em> into existence.</p><div><hr></div><h3>Note</h3><p><strong>(1)</strong> Some of the quoted words and passages from Graham Priest are taken from the <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66enDcUQUK0">&#8216;Everything and Nothing&#8217;</a> seminar&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;a Robert Curtius Lecture of Excellence at Bonn University&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;which Priest gave in 2017. I relied on both the transcript and the video itself. However, I&#8217;ve edited a lot of what Priest says in that seminar to make it more comprehensible. For example, I removed many of the uses of the word &#8220;so&#8221;, added full stops, commas and suchlike. Hopefully, the philosophical content is kept intact. None of this applicable to the words and passages I quote which come from Priest&#8217;s papers and books.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Do Lady Gaga and Stefani Germanotta Live in Different Worlds?]]></title><description><![CDATA[An essay on the meanings of names and terms, reference and the "relativism" of Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/do-lady-gaga-and-stefani-germanotta</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/do-lady-gaga-and-stefani-germanotta</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2026 13:02:51 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><hr></div><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg" width="1250" height="937" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:937,&quot;width&quot;:1250,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;Do Lady Gaga and Stefani Germanotta Live in Different Worlds?&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="Do Lady Gaga and Stefani Germanotta Live in Different Worlds?" title="Do Lady Gaga and Stefani Germanotta Live in Different Worlds?" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!0Ghv!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9bde6143-29e0-499b-841b-a304dd5fddaf_1250x937.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55367837844/in/dateposted">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><blockquote><p>&#8220;[T]he proponents of competing paradigms practice their trades in different worlds.&#8221; </p><p>(<strong>Thomas Kuhn, </strong><em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+Structure+of+Scientific+Revolutions&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvuT_2aSER2VhHUNdA3XQ6LIG716A%3A1782880765445&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=_ZlEapqYGcb4kdUP9sri-QE&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSoDfMvaoBNvon2gcirnBxlpRh81pTH&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjaisy11LCVAxVGfKQEHXalOB8Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+Structure+of+Scientific+Revolutions&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IidUaGUgU3RydWN0dXJlIG9mIFNjaWVudGlmaWMgUmV2b2x1dGlvbnMyBBAuGCcyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIlw1QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBW6ABW6oBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAm-YAwCSBwMwLjGgB-MKsgcDMC4xuAdvwgcDMy0xyAcOgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">The Structure of Scientific Revolutions</a></em>, 1962)</p></blockquote><div><hr></div><p>To start off from the most basic element of this argument about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=reference+in+philosophy&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsGrMgTYYXgDd8kbnn195ph5GcH0Q%3A1782834435152&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=A-VDatf6Bq3KhbIPoqz88AM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPzEzrE-T0kVPDh9o9MuLejEf-6Pscq&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiXiMvpp6-VAxUtZUEAHSIWHz4Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=reference+in+philosophy&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhdyZWZlcmVuY2UgaW4gcGhpbG9zb3BoeTIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FSLsjUABYxB1wAHgAkAEAmAGbAaABkQqqAQQxMy4yuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIPoAKRC8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDwgINEAAYgAQYFBiHAhixA8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgIOEC4YrwEYxwEYsQMYgATCAgoQABiABBgUGIcCmAMAkgcEMTIuM6AHkmGyBwQxMi4zuAeRC8IHBjItMTMuMsgHZIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">reference</a>. Most people will agree that the name &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; refers to the person with the name &#8216;Stefani Germanotta&#8217;. At least according to one particular <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=theory+of+reference&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsfjFn2x-a2gb2DnGlM5fTZwAOVbQ%3A1782832844011&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=y95DatTuOJqH9u8PufO78QM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPs3OsQsk4lJLs4ISG2pSzecxqo2M_O&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiUgO3yoa-VAxWag_0HHbn5Lj4Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=theory+of+reference&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhN0aGVvcnkgb2YgcmVmZXJlbmNlMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSIAMUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAYEBoAGBAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaAClQGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB9QFsgcDMC4xuAeVAcIHAzMtMcgHD4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">theory of reference</a>, the important point here is that both names have no <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Fregean+sense&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsaxe91KC3ElmoLk0Tnpeqx1gPtcg%3A1782834488194&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=OOVDava3CdK-hbIPyaDeoAo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPzSDqr35sotoFOnJd2Mv63MUwANlBC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj2s_CCqK-VAxVSX0EAHUmQF6QQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Fregean+sense&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1GcmVnZWFuIHNlbnNlMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkiKCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF3oAF3qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKJAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHmgeyBwMwLjG4B4kBwgcDMy0xyAcOgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Fregean sense</a> or meaning.</p><p>To explain that last statement. We can see the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=referent+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuRLdHBoZ7vhdbDycfSZecWCWQdqg%3A1782879851906&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=a5ZEao2_NOS1hbIPs4qi0Q0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSkey13brPU8gIRKFpoqlnL4WPgXJap&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjNoP2B0bCVAxXkWkEAHTOFKNoQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=referent+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVyZWZlcmVudCAocGhpbG9zb3BoeSkyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGA0jiKlAAWK8lcAB4AJABAJgBigGgAdAJqgEEMTIuMrgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCDqACuQrCAgUQABiABMICBRAAGO8FwgIIEAAYCBgeGA2YAwCSBwQxMS4zoAeiRrIHBDExLjO4B7kKwgcGMi0xMy4xyAdTgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">referent</a> (in this case, Lady Gaga) as being something &#8220;out there&#8221;. If the names &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; and &#8216;Stefani Germanotta&#8217; had meanings, then those meanings would be &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22meanings+in+the+head%22&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvF0xavjiGjuceXo4MIQWK2tmY3kw%3A1782879940504&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=xJZEatG_HL3MhbIP5-7bgQ8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSk1FAd18sRTBJSJlng2dsTALJaA4wm&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjRsZ2s0bCVAxU9ZkEAHWf3NvAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22meanings+in+the+head%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhYibWVhbmluZ3MgaW4gdGhlIGhlYWQiMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSKuLAVDyEljFcnACeACQAQCYAa4BoAHqEaoBBTE0LjExuAEDyAEA-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-zQAbIHBTEyLjEyuAfgEsIHCDItMjAuNS4xyAerAYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">in the head&#8221;</a>. Thus, people would mean different things when they used these different names. This wouldn&#8217;t only mean that people would apply different meanings to the names &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; and &#8216;Stefani Germanotta&#8217;, but to &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; (on its own) too.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>The important point here is that people can agree on what a name (or term) refers to even if they disagree on what it means. Now this isn&#8217;t very controversial when it comes to the names &#8216;Lady Gaga&#8217; and &#8216;Stefani Germanotta&#8217;, but what about the words and names &#8216;peace&#8217;, &#8216;democracy&#8217;, &#8216;woman&#8217;, &#8216;gold&#8217;, &#8216;acid&#8217;, &#8216;momentum&#8217;, etc?</p><p>Do all the aforementioned terms or words only make sense according to certain <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=conceptual+schemes&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntKFWjSpyctzIqm-YBroUo0Gpe1Lg%3A1782880022980&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=FpdEapy4OaymhbIPu5Ol-Qc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSlJusv8UiCegdafNjywdPuDAE4gx4I&amp;ved=0ahUKEwicm8fT0bCVAxUsU0EAHbtJKX8Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=conceptual+schemes&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhJjb25jZXB0dWFsIHNjaGVtZXMyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjRC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFmoAFmqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ6mAMAkgcDMC4xoAfaBbIHAzAuMbgHesIHAzMtMcgHDYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">conceptual schemes</a>,<strong> </strong>language games<strong> </strong>or <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Kuhnian+paradigms&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnunLp1IQHKrWxW9wGa9RjlnVzEA2w%3A1782832899181&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=A99DapukCMSG9u8PwNO94Ac&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPtExuD-BFqeSB-ARevtwN8XzcRwmeg&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjbsZaNoq-VAxVEg_0HHcBpD3wQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Kuhnian+paradigms&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFLdWhuaWFuIHBhcmFkaWdtczIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FSPMJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAYUBoAGFAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaAClAGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB5QEsgcDMC4xuAeUAcIHAzMtMcgHCIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Kuhnian paradigms</a>? In terms of the latter, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnt_U_YX8ATC2JfaLOMXlxAZM2pjWA%3A1782880171040&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=q5dEavMyyYeR1Q_k94SBCQ&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSlu-CbuFAyuMb_tYeFuvWCEZKdiUfz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiztJSa0rCVAxXJQ6QEHeQ7IZAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtUaG9tYXMgS3VobjIEECMYJzIFEC4YgAQyChAuGEMYgAQYigUyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyBRAAGIAEMgoQABiABBiKBRhDMgUQABiABEjSCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFVoAFVqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACaJgDAJIHAzAuMaAHzgmyBwMwLjG4B2jCBwMzLTHIBw-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Thomas Kuhn</a> himself <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+structure+of+scientific+revolutions&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuG9OBGngENEqArOD5iYRGICb42Xg%3A1782880086742&amp;ei=VpdEaq3sLMDqhbIPwIac2Qo&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;gs_ssp=eJzj4tTP1TcwLCksKTdg9FIvyUhVKC4pKk0uKS1KVchPUyhOzkzNK8lMy0xWKEoty88pLcnMzysGANtwEyQ&amp;oq=The+Structure&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiDVRoZSBTdHJ1Y3R1cmUqAggAMgsQLhiRAhiABBiKBTILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEipZVAAWONTcAJ4AZABAJgBfaABhgqqAQQxNC4yuAEByAEA-AEBmAISoALUC6gCEMICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIFEAAY7wXCAgUQIRigAcICBxAjGOoCGCfCAg0QIxjwBRieBhjqAhgnwgINECMYngYY8AUY6gIYJ8ICDRAuGMcBGK8BGOoCGCfCAhcQABiABBiKBRiRAhjnBhjqAhi0AtgBAcICChAjGJ4GGPAFGCfCAgQQIxgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICChAAGIAEGIoFGEPCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICDhAuGIAEGLEDGMcBGNEDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAsICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIFEC4YgATCAggQLhiABBixA8ICCBAuGLEDGIAEwgIREC4YrwEYxwEYgAQYmAUYmQWYAxHxBYeuMPUuKCXwugYGCAEQARgBkgcEMTQuNKAHnPABsgcEMTIuNLgHtgvCBwYyLTUuMTPIB6UBgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">wrote</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Though the world does not change with a change of paradigm, the scientist afterward works in a different world.&#8221;</p></div><p>According to the theory discussed here, it isn&#8217;t important that the meanings be made clear: it&#8217;s that the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=What+is+it+to+%22fix%22+the+terms+applied+to+referents+in+philosophy%3F&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnu7as7sBKvXPdx9OS-PyGyHzccICg%3A1782834250985&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=SuRDas78OJ-N9u8Ptv2N4AU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPyWrpkrU3KE4zvmDmMc0E3KZtMhZ-m&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjOyeGRp6-VAxWfhv0HHbZ-A1wQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=What+is+it+to+%22fix%22+the+terms+applied+to+referents+in+philosophy%3F&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IkFXaGF0IGlzIGl0IHRvICJmaXgiIHRoZSB0ZXJtcyBhcHBsaWVkIHRvIHJlZmVyZW50cyBpbiBwaGlsb3NvcGh5P0inwwFQ8gdY4JcBcAF4AJABAJgBzAGgAaU8qgEHMjYuMzguMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCP6AC7j2oAgrCAgcQIxjqAhgnwgINECMYngYY8AUY6gIYJ8ICBBAjGCfCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgoQIxieBhjwBRgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQPCAggQABiABBixA8ICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIFEAAYgATCAgUQLhiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCBAAGBYYHhgKwgIFECEYnwXCAgsQABiABBiKBRiGA8ICBRAAGO8FwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAggQABiJBRiiBMICBRAhGKABwgIEECEYFcICBxAhGAoYoAHCAgQQIRgKmAMZ8QWu7LBbDh2IWZIHBzE5LjQzLjGgB_KJA7IHBzE4LjQzLjG4B9Q9wgcJNC4yMy4zMS41yAeNAoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">referents of terms be &#8220;fixed&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Take the case of<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=W.V.O+Quine&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntpLjhWX-LAmp3GWBd0QP5sBTnGSQ%3A1782834333118&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=neRDapGsBOrn7_UPlM7EiAo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPyrdShZ_zNYdPYHeNFGmJdJ4PmiUCs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjR7va4p6-VAxXq87sIHRQnEaEQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=W.V.O+Quine&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtXLlYuTyBRdWluZTIEECMYJzIFEC4YgAQyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUiWClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF-oAF-qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKPAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHkAeyBwMwLjG4B48BwgcDMy0xyAcOgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">W.V.O Quine</a>&#8217;s discussion of the phrase &#8220;the number of plants&#8221; and the name &#8220;9&#8221;. Although Quine&#8217;s stress is different to the one being made here, his example is still useful. <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=W.V.O.+Quine%2C+Word+and+Object&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsm_xwY4DdFO0zdConbYFwAkwlm4Q%3A1782832958557&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Pt9DarmYH6-A9u8PxZvTkQo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPtTuGXs6FEau991gqTr7OQmb5e3p3U&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi5r76poq-VAxUvgP0HHcXNNKIQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=W.V.O.+Quine%2C+Word+and+Object&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ih1XLlYuTy4gUXVpbmUsIFdvcmQgYW5kIE9iamVjdDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogRI-whQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBrAGgAawBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAK6AZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHgQKyBwMwLjG4B7oBwgcDMi0xyAcHgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">The following</a> is Quine himself on the matter:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The opacity of &#8216;necessarily&#8217; is also easily shown by a variant of Church&#8217;s example. We have:</p><p>(1) Necessarily (9 &gt; 4).</p><p>and</p><p>(2) Necessarily the number of major planets (&gt;4).</p><p>Of these, surely, on any plausible interpretation, (1) is true and (2) is false. Since (9 = {the number of major planets}), we can conclude that the position of &#8216;(9)&#8217; in (1) is not purely referential and hence that the necessity operator is opaque.&#8221;</p></div><p>To get the point across. Does the phrase &#8220;the number of planets&#8221; refer to the number 9? Yes, but not <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=necessarily+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsn1-To_dOzaJhq3c0uC0K6ywdmKw%3A1782880207196&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=z5dEarCjCdCF9u8PqIj8qAo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSl36ku7joBaBjRGcM8RjkJeQMCy_Z0&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjwxrKr0rCVAxXQgv0HHSgEH6UQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=necessarily+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhhuZWNlc3NhcmlseSAocGhpbG9zb3BoeSkyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVI-DNQAFjBLXAAeACQAQCYAV-gAe4HqgECMTS4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAg6gArwIwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgUQABiABMICCBAAGBYYHhgKmAMAkgcEMTMuMaAHzkSyBwQxMy4xuAe8CMIHBzAuNS44LjHIBzeACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">necessarily</a></em>. The number of planets might have been 8 or 203. But &#8216;9&#8217; will always refer to 9. Thus, &#8220;the number of planets&#8221; is <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Quine+on+opacity&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntMTa4P9GhX2w_6NDK5OvLtfne-VQ%3A1782834165905&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9eNDas6WNO6P9u8P__u8-Qc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPyBca13Ny_3vJ0UPHqvVaHM51TDsPk&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiO5Zjppq-VAxXuh_0HHf89L38Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Quine+on+opacity&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBRdWluZSBvbiBvcGFjaXR5MgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVI_StQAFjJJnAAeACQAQCYAdIBoAH_DaoBBTkuNi4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIQoAL7DsICChAjGPAFGMkCGCfCAgQQIxgnwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIKECMYyQIY8AUYJ8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICChAuGIAEGIoFGEPCAhMQLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDGMcBGNEDwgIUEC4YgAQYigUYkQIYsQMYxwEY0QPCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIOEC4YgAQYigUYsQMYgwHCAg0QLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICBRAAGIAEwgIHEAAYgAQYCsICBRAuGIAEwgIGEAAYFhgewgILEAAYgAQYigUYhgPCAgQQIRgKmAMAkgcFNy44LjGgB41nsgcFNy44LjG4B_sOwgcKMC4zLjExLjEuMcgHXYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">opaque</a></em><strong> </strong>(to use Quine&#8217;s term), whereas &#8220;9&#8221; is a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=rigid+designator&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQns8OMmTV7jYy1sfLbkru2bA_YiJCQ%3A1782833044129&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=lN9Daq3JBZCB9u8PzsCN4QY&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPtpJ5D6xnRSuJLJYBQ3E2n3upPHyfX&amp;ved=0ahUKEwit46XSoq-VAxWQgP0HHU5gI2wQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=rigid+designator&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhByaWdpZCBkZXNpZ25hdG9yMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkizC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGyAaABsgGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAsUBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeWBbIHAzAuMbgHxQHCBwMzLTHIBw-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">rigid designator</a> (to use<strong> </strong>Kripke&#8217;s term). Some may argue that this is to conflate two different philosophical systems. What is actually being done is something more mundane. Two different terms from two different philosophers are being used in a particular way.</p><p>To repeat. Quine argued in terms of <em>necessity</em> (or necessary statements), rather than<strong> </strong>simply reference.</p><p>However, &#8216;3 &#178;&#8217; always refers to 9, just as much as &#8216;9&#8217; always refers to 9.</p><p>That&#8217;s arithmetic. Things aren&#8217;t so simple in the case of physics. That said, Quine&#8217;s idea, and this variation, can still be applied.</p><h3>Now for Physics</h3><p>Take the term &#8216;electron&#8217;. According to <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Bas+Van+Fraassen&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuhQRTTgL-ssk2xXAgt6rz32VDAWQ%3A1782833111296&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=199DavetD8OI9u8Pic2DyAU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPt56rjO0yO1nRoK38jF8Rvv4yhQI27&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi39ajyoq-VAxVDhP0HHYnmAFkQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Bas+Van+Fraassen&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBCYXMgVmFuIEZyYWFzc2VuMgQQIxgnMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCBAAGBYYHhgKSMArUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXagAXaqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAooBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeEC7IHAzAuMbgHigHCBwMzLTHIBw-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Bas van Fraassen</a>, we need to be aware of the <a href="https://epistemh.pbworks.com/f/2.+Oxford.University.Press.USA.The.Scientific.Image.Okt.1980.pdf">following</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;Whose electron did Millikan observe; Lorenz&#8217;s, Rutherford&#8217;s, Bohr&#8217;s or Schrodinger&#8217;s?&#8221;</em></p></div><p>Similarly, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Paul+Feyerabend&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQns8_9JsmUxo0IAOIkzFFfycixZ-7w%3A1782833164171&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=DOBDarPxBrrl7M8P18zy-Ao&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPuHAXvhYH1UqHmnfBRrBBViTr05f7v&amp;ved=0ahUKEwizp8OLo6-VAxW6MvsDHVemHK8Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Paul+Feyerabend&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9QYXVsIEZleWVyYWJlbmQyBBAjGCcyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgoQABiABBgUGIcCMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEjGCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFaoAFaqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACbZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH5QmyBwMwLjG4B23CBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Paul Feyerabend</a> claimed that Aristotle and Newton <a href="https://scispace.com/pdf/explanation-reduction-and-empiricism-11do5ng9b5.pdf">meant different things</a> by the terms &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22impetus%22+in+science&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsyFm41Xa8zUuxc6J_iQa_ocWL6AQ%3A1782834018871&amp;ei=YuNDavjVNLiFxc8P_u6EqAs&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4jo2jpq-VAxW4QvEDHX43AbUQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22impetus%22+in+science&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFCJpbXBldHVzIiBpbiBzY2llbmNlMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMggQABiABBiiBEjtJlDDDli3InABeAGQAQCYAYMBoAHcB6oBBDEwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgygAtUIwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAhAQLhiABBiKBRhDGMcBGNEDwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICBRAAGIAEwgILEC4YgAQYxwEYrwHCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA5gDAIgGAZAGCJIHAzcuNaAHpz2yBwM2LjW4B8gIwgcFMi03LjXIB2CACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">impetus</a>&#8221;<strong> </strong>and &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+term+%22inertia%22+in+science&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuGW-6ADCPrhCR_fmWJtV_XtKTDZg%3A1782834030772&amp;ei=buNDavfWLvSWxc8P8e_EqA0&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj3xeOopq-VAxV0S_EDHfE3EdUQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=the+term+%22inertia%22+in+science&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHXRoZSB0ZXJtICJpbmVydGlhIiBpbiBzY2llbmNlMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVIuUpQsgVY_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_wPwgcHMi0xMy4xMMgHugGACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">inertia</a>&#8221;:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;What happens here when transition is made from a theory T&#8217; to a wider theory *T* [&#8230;] is something much more radical than incorporation [&#8230;] it is a replacement of the conceptual apparatus of T&#8217; by a different apparatus. Thus we do not have a transition from &#8216;impetus&#8217; to &#8216;inertia&#8217;, or from &#8216;absolute mass&#8217; to &#8216;relative mass&#8217;; what we have is a complete change of the meaning of all descriptive terms.&#8221;</p></div><p>Feyerabend seems to be pretty categorical above. Was he talking about <em>some</em> scientific theories, or <em>all</em> scientific theories? In addition, is it always about &#8220;replacement&#8221;, rather than &#8220;incorporation&#8221;? In this passage, Feyerabend did mention the &#8220;transition from &#8216;impetus&#8217; to &#8216;inertia&#8217;&#8221; and &#8220;from &#8216;absolute mass&#8217; to relative mass&#8221;. However, Feyerabend is now known for applying this to <em>all</em> science, and therefore to <em>all</em> scientific theories. The final question is whether his account even works in the cases he cites above.</p><p>Now do all these rival terms refer to the same <em>thing</em> (or referent)? Do only some do so? Do they all refer to different things? Perhaps some don&#8217;t refer at all.</p><p>Hilary Putnam, for one, argued that in many cases &#8220;we are still talking about the same kind of stuff&#8221;. More relevantly, he <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Representation_and_Reality/A0YJILtyCPEC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;printsec=frontcover">wrote</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[W]e are still talking about the same good old momentum&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;the magnitude that is conserved in elastic collisions.&#8221;</p></div><p>So this will still depend on which <em>kind of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+term+%22stuff%22+in+20th+and+21st+century+metaphysics&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntTeBMLyuV2FkrcU3x9cX10xsELXw%3A1782834619588&amp;ei=u-VDarq6I52ohbIPv5nOuQI&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj6g8bBqK-VAxUdVEEAHb-MMycQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=the+term+%22stuff%22+in+20th+and+21st+century+metaphysics&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiNXRoZSB0ZXJtICJzdHVmZiIgaW4gMjB0aCBhbmQgMjFzdCBjZW50dXJ5IG1ldGFwaHlzaWNzMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVI4ThQ9QVYvTFwAXgBkAEAmAF_oAG-CaoBAzYuNrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCC6ACjAjCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgIHECMYsAIYJ5gDAIgGAZAGCJIHAzYuNaAH4iqyBwM1LjW4B4IIwgcGMi0xMC4xyAcxgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">stuff</a></em> philosophers and scientists have in mind.</p><p>It can be said that Lady Gaga is the <em>same kind of stuff</em> as Stefani Germanotta&#8230; except that the words &#8220;kind of stuff&#8221; may be problematic here. In one case at least, Putnam himself was talking about acid, and acid is both a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=natural+kind&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnunFT8dvLkUbwXj_JUfcxwqdvRtMg%3A1782833379348&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=4-BDatXaEtT-7_UPr_OW0AY&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPu807zkfmFn5uLU1W8lW5Q6SJB_geQ&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiV2JHyo6-VAxVU_7sIHa-5BWoQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=natural+kind&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxuYXR1cmFsIGtpbmQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgcQABiABBgKMgUQLhiABEjVClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFvoAFvqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKBAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH9weyBwMwLjG4B4EBwgcDMy0xyAcOgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">natural kind</a> (some believe it to be a<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=functional+kind+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQns0QL3xwVaTzpeYGWn_oWu5KGiyOg%3A1782833414064&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=BuFDap_EAfuI9u8P8pD6uAU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPvFhh_KIdGKQcUqsULOVOZ9jqH2Q22&amp;ved=0ahUKEwif39iCpK-VAxV7hP0HHXKIHlcQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=functional+kind+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhxmdW5jdGlvbmFsIGtpbmQgKHBoaWxvc29waHkpMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBUixNFAAWMwrcAB4AJABAJgBpwGgAZEOqgEEMy4xMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCDqAC_g7CAgYQABgWGB7CAgsQABiABBiKBRiGA8ICBRAAGO8FwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAggQABiJBRiiBMICBRAhGKABmAMAkgcEMi4xMqAH7lSyBwQyLjEyuAf-DsIHBzAuNS44LjHIB0KACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">functional kind</a>) and a stuff. Lady Gaga/Stefani Germanotta isn&#8217;t a natural kind: she&#8217;s an <em>individual</em> (meant in the strictly ontological sense) who&#8217;s a member of the biological kind Homo sapiens.</p><h3>Observation and Reference</h3><p>Is reference linked to observation? After all, don&#8217;t you need to observe referents in order for them to be referents?</p><p>Stressing reference is often a way of stressing some kind of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=philosophical+realism&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnv02aipos5_DbvHzEm4YK6oAszQDw%3A1782880369367&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=cZhEasaDFJ6gkdUP__mUsQ0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSmgWB2oWx7C-_bgfyOs11My2H1BGMx&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGgN340rCVAxUeUKQEHf88JdYQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=philosophical+realism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVwaGlsb3NvcGhpY2FsIHJlYWxpc20yCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSIAIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVmgAVmqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJpmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfdBbIHAzAuMbgHacIHAzMtMcgHC4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">philosophical realism</a>. More particularly, observation is a way of reining in theory. However, if reference entails observation, or observation entails reference, then we do have a problem.</p><p>Referents (or <em>things</em>) don&#8217;t have names or terms attached to them. Thus, reference (or <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=reference-fixing&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntlYCcUYM0h2Gvi7i0-P-pKvp_qYg%3A1782880418975&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ophEavWoOYLw7M8P6t_dsAc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSmsmfXVDxrinenTBj-XuFvK1OPpsIk&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj1gbGQ07CVAxUCOPsDHepvF3YQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=reference-fixing&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhByZWZlcmVuY2UtZml4aW5nMgQQABgeMgQQABgeMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHjIGEAAYCBgeMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHjIGEAAYCBgeMgYQABgIGB4yBhAAGAgYHkiqDlAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFVoAFVqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACZJgDAJIHAzAuMaAHvwWyBwMwLjG4B2TCBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">reference-fixing</a>) must include some kind of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=classification&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsYkRISqgoF5XYwRkpyUbor0Jaogw%3A1782833953301&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=IeNDasyDEMKK9u8P_a7H8Q0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPxMQgI6bnOO0LXtO6iG7TEBb0jjGIY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiMmOmDpq-VAxVChf0HHX3XMd4Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=classification&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5jbGFzc2lmaWNhdGlvbjIIEAAYgAQYsQMyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI-gpQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBaaABaaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACfJgDAJIHAzAuMaAH2gSyBwMwLjG4B3zCBwMzLTHIBxCACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">classification</a>. Classification itself incorporates categories and&#8230; <em>theories</em>. Can we escape all this and achieve what is called &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=what+is+%22direct+reference%22%3F&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvUgGKZQIxCzAm1VyIqUtKXfADarA%3A1782833688889&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=GOJDaoXWMZj67_UP6oLosQo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPwKHR9AqoKYITftQdLqrXEa7gpr2TG&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiFwtyFpa-VAxUY_bsIHWoBOqYQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=what+is+%22direct+reference%22%3F&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Iht3aGF0IGlzICJkaXJlY3QgcmVmZXJlbmNlIj8yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjxQlD4BVjJPXABeACQAQCYAXGgAakQqgEEMjUuMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCHKAC_hGoAgrCAgcQIxjqAhgnwgINECMYngYY8AUY6gIYJ8ICDRAuGMcBGK8BGOoCGCfCAgQQIxgnwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkQLCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIKECMYngYY8AUYJ8ICDhAAGIAEGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIFEAAYgATCAgoQIxjwBRieBhgnwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICDhAuGIAEGLEDGMcBGNEDwgIREAAYgAQYigUYjQYYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAsICDhAAGIAEGIoFGI0GGLEDwgIIEAAYgAQYsQOYAxXxBSFuoU1qlOp8kgcEMjQuNKAHg4gCsgcEMjMuNLgH6RHCBwYyLTI0LjTIB6gBgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">direct reference</a>&#8221; or &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22pure+reference%22+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=63391fa8cbb1a4b9&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntzG245TGSS2foSwjjgJ-ofHddzAQ%3A1782880463473&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=z5hEaq3tGfyNkdUPv6GKuAo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakSm3xHjLi_Sujl8a-yh02PhWXsG89Xz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjtkMyl07CVAxX8RqQEHb-QAqcQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22pure+reference%22+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ih0icHVyZSByZWZlcmVuY2UiIChwaGlsb3NvcGh5KTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVI6SxQAFjYJ3AAeACQAQCYAWmgAbAIqgEEMTMuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCDqACiQnCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIFEAAY7wXCAgUQIRigAcICBxAhGAoYoAGYAwCSBwQxMy4xoAefKLIHBDEzLjG4B4kJwgcHMi43LjQuMcgHMYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">pure reference</a>&#8221;?</p><p>Surely these kinds (or acts) of reference only refer to&#8230; <em>things</em> or objects. That is, reference can be achieved non-linguistically by, say, pointing at an object. This can&#8217;t apply to electrons or even genes. However, some things or phenomena (such as events) can be pointed at, even in not electrons or genes themselves. The British philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Philip+Kitcher&amp;sca_esv=9e14c540528a302f&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntaNiZU6SH-BbNcdLCyKFy_4RCBgA%3A1782833804722&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=jOJDavTBKcKH9u8Pq_3kgAU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakPwnKRGWWgkD0D7KYS8_KoLQkj3_NSL&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0t_y8pa-VAxXCg_0HHas-GVAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Philip+Kitcher&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5QaGlsaXAgS2l0Y2hlcjIEECMYJzIKEC4YQxiABBiKBTILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IrBZQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBdKABdKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACkAGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB6wPsgcDMC4xuAeQAcIHAzQtMcgHE4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Philip Kitcher</a> puts it in the <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/2184458">following way</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;According to the &#8216;received view,&#8217; theoretical terms, such as &#8216;electron&#8217; or &#8216;gene&#8217;, derive their entire meaning from their partial observational interpretation, which proceeds by connecting such terms with observable states of affairs by rules of correspondence.&#8221;</p></div><p>So on the <em>received view</em>, even theoretical terms are tied to observations of various kinds. Are they tied to referents too? Surely the referent of the term &#8216;electron&#8217; is an electron, not simply to &#8220;observable states of affairs&#8221; which are <em>interpreted</em>&#8230; But hold on here. There&#8217;s a long tradition in which it has been argued that an electron is a <em>set of observable states of affairs, </em>along with their <em>interpretations</em>. More accurately, an electron has always been an interpretation of a set of observable states of affairs.</p><p>Yet even if this is the case, it still amounts to a very odd form of reference, and it certainly can&#8217;t apply to any form of <em>direct</em> <em>reference</em>.</p><h3>Conclusion</h3><p>There are problems with the focus on reference to counteract Kuhnian relativism. Yet it&#8217;s still a way of moving out of the stress on paradigms, conceptual change, language games, theory-ladenness, etc. The two philosophers who took diametrically opposed views on all this were Hilary Putnam (at least at certain points) and Paul Feyerabend. Discussing their positions (among other things) has hopefully made this philosophical debate a little clearer.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Are You and Your Computer a Single Mind?]]></title><description><![CDATA[This is a critical introduction to the Extended Mind Thesis. There's a lot going for the EMT, just not that the mind is actually extended.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/are-you-and-your-computer-a-single</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/are-you-and-your-computer-a-single</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2026 11:02:59 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg" width="1250" height="577" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/a099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:577,&quot;width&quot;:1250,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;Extended Mind Thesis&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="Extended Mind Thesis" title="Extended Mind Thesis" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!e_se!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa099c7dd-9c0a-46ee-a833-a701c584fa43_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55382557133/in/dateposted">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><h3>The Extended Mind Thesis Is Obvious</h3><p>In the philosophy of mind, the extended mind thesis (EMT) has it that the mind doesn&#8217;t exclusively reside in the brain or even in the body as a whole: it extends into the physical world.</p><p>Isn&#8217;t there something obvious about the extended mind thesis when it stresses (to use the words of David Chalmers and Andy Clark) &#8220;<a href="https://consc.net/papers/extended.html">the active role of the environment in driving cognitive processes</a>&#8221;?</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>The first argument<strong> </strong>of the EM thesis is that some objects in the external world can be part of a cognitive process. The second argument<strong> </strong>(or conclusion) is that such objects function as extensions of the mind itself.</p><p>Why does the mind <em>extend</em> into the physical world? Is this simply a reference to <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=intentionality&amp;sca_esv=a707d86a229c684a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsxxCBcqVHe6krsboT7FPamYSIiXQ%3A1783863014649&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=5pZTauD4JOrs7_UPl5GmqAc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalOk9iOcRrSiPnLd9AT4kOiHzaeDewjU&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjgg8HKn82VAxVq9rsIHZeICXUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=intentionality&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5pbnRlbnRpb25hbGl0eTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARItghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBbaABbaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACfZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH9ASyBwMwLjG4B33CBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">intentionality</a>?</p><h3>The EMT as Yet Another Anti-Cartesian Position</h3><p>The EMT can be seen to be <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=anti-Cartesian&amp;sca_esv=3aec22bef127626d&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvkkN6aFvXpDBmDjHysbPW7IsnTfg%3A1783850477220&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=7WVTasW2BuCei-gPkpbjkQU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalNz_XavNvvNQ0c8KHe35wDenk6fU1GY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiF4ZTw8MyVAxVgzwIHHRLLOFIQ4dUDCDw&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=anti-Cartesian&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5hbnRpLUNhcnRlc2lhbjIFEAAYgAQyBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB5I7QlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBZKABZKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACcpgDAJIHAzAuMaAH5gSyBwMwLjG4B3LCBwMzLTHIBwqACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anti-Cartesian</a>. It&#8217;s therefore anti-<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=internalism+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=fb69676b9d29ec17&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntiOwE6FV7QwmP_6AfhDcEvoPdjuA%3A1783850510980&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=DmZTavemOfOAi-gPzPnC4Qk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalN0Hpw_TFjvx-e1U36B81uws6dgbVOU&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj35aWA8cyVAxVzwAIHHcy8MJwQ4dUDCDw&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=internalism+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=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-ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">internalist</a> too.</p><p>In a typically anti-Cartesian manner, Chalmers and Clark (in their 1998 paper &#8220;<a href="https://consc.net/papers/extended.html">The Extended Mind</a>&#8221;) <a href="https://consc.net/papers/extended.html">argue that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;the separation between the mind, the body, and the environment is an unprincipled distinction&#8221;.</p></div><p>Actually, we shouldn&#8217;t say <em>unprincipled</em>. It can simply be said that it&#8217;s mistaken, at least if we want to stress the body and the environment.</p><p>More technically, the EMT contrasts with the view of the mind as a centre which creates representations of reality, and then uses them to control the body&#8217;s behaviour.</p><p>I always found it hard to understand how Donald Davidson, Richard Rorty, etc., attempted to completely obliterate <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=representations+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=fb69676b9d29ec17&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvFTxpth0ajx8DNKbjQrjCfJKKh3A%3A1783850648634&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=mGZTatb2I5Kdi-gPn6qhgQQ&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalN0qANFYPYAxDspu4GERgm2yC1lNYjw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjWovfB8cyVAxWSzgIHHR9VKEAQ4dUDCDw&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=representations+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhxyZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbnMgKHBoaWxvc29waHkpMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUi1KFAAWOEicAB4AJABAJgBeaABjAqqAQQxMi4yuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIOoALyCsICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIFEAAYgATCAggQABgWGB4YCpgDAJIHAzkuNaAHuUqyBwM5LjW4B_IKwgcHMC4yLjkuM8gHTIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">representations</a> from all accounts of the mind. (<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Gottlob+Frege&amp;sca_esv=a707d86a229c684a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuWYhXRyLDpXRe4EmAWCqS0Kqpu0Q%3A1783863889068&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=UZpTaovlAc-G9u8P3ZqD4Aw&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalOoYeD8dLHtqUq8H2EIR2y_XPP3wFwy&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjL0bvros2VAxVPg_0HHV3NAMwQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Gottlob+Frege&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1Hb3R0bG9iIEZyZWdlMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESL8HUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAW6gAW6qAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoABmAMAkgcDMC4xoAe3CbIHAzAuMbgHgAHCBwMzLTHIBw6ACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Gottlob Frege</a> argued, in his &#8220;<a href="http://www.thatmarcusfamily.org/philosophy/Course_Websites/Readings/Frege%20-%20The%20Thought%20a%20Logical%20Inquiry.pdf">The Thought</a>,&#8221; that without representations, objects would literally need to be in the mind.) Yet, in terms of the EMT, this makes some sense. That&#8217;s because human subjects are seen as, if not being a &#8220;spiritual part of the environment&#8221;, then at least we constantly <em>interact</em> with it.</p><h3>Stipulation and Scientific Natural Kinds</h3><p>Much of the EM debate is a definitional matter anyway.</p><p>Since the word &#8220;mind&#8221; doesn&#8217;t refer to a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=scientific+natural+kind&amp;sca_esv=a707d86a229c684a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnu5hvT8ZoWj5j7_xxJCGa_C4K7gbA%3A1783862937473&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=mZZTaufEGrv-7_UPrYnHkQM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalOkqeax50ZMfnmJaD9xejAldiMQlmmq&amp;ved=0ahUKEwin9dqln82VAxU7_7sIHa3EMTIQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=scientific+natural+kind&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhdzY2llbnRpZmljIG5hdHVyYWwga2luZDIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVI6QdQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBkQGgAZEBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKiAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHggmyBwMwLjG4B6IBwgcDMy0xyAcMgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">scientific natural kind</a>, Chalmers and Clark are free to define it as they wish. Thus, the argument of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22cognitive+bloating%22+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=fb69676b9d29ec17&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsAEaWSo_6s9s0tBhbmluPL5sjyUA%3A1783852898003&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=YW9Tap7POqOH9u8Pwo6WgAY&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalN9cn0Mlhm_sHfAH5tp16xJuipQP37C&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjeg8Ly-cyVAxWjg_0HHUKHBWAQ4dUDCDw&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22cognitive+bloating%22+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiEiY29nbml0aXZlIGJsb2F0aW5nIiAocGhpbG9zb3BoeSkyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFI9DVQAFiGL3AAeACQAQCYAXmgAewJqgEEMTIuMrgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCDqACuArCAgYQABgWGB7CAgsQABiABBiKBRiGA8ICBRAAGO8FwgIIEAAYiQUYogTCAgcQIRgKGKABmAMAkgcEMTEuM6AH2BqyBwQxMS4zuAe4CsIHCDEuMTAuMi4xyAcigAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;cognitive bloating&#8221;</a> has been put forward, in which, for example, <a href="https://medium.com/neo-cybernetics/the-logical-errors-of-the-philosophy-of-mind-77bf9d6a8c99">&#8220;everything on the Internet is part of individual cognitive systems&#8221;</a>.</p><p>It&#8217;s hard to know how these&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;definitional?&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;questions can be answered. The German philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Vincent+C.+Muller&amp;sca_esv=fb69676b9d29ec17&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvDBZI8n05tX9K2txqTly9K0MuAXQ%3A1783851011319&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=A2hTasDtELmihbIP1qnS8Qc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalN2E2e0p0KgtVyvenV-IKVSKeI-45M-&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiA--_u8syVAxU5UUEAHdaUNH4Q4dUDCDw&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Vincent+C.+Muller&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFWaW5jZW50IEMuIE11bGxlcjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSJAKUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXegAXeqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoQBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfIArIHAzAuMbgHhAHCBwMzLTHIBwmACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Vincent C. Muller</a><strong> </strong>picks up on this. As he <a href="https://philarchive.org/archive/MLLTEM">put it</a>, the EMT</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;turns [out] to be just a statement on where the demarcations for the &#8216;mental&#8217; are to be set&#8221;.</p></div><p>Consequently, &#8220;this discussion about<strong> </strong>demarcation is merely verbal and thus to be avoided&#8221;.</p><p>The mind may not be a natural kind. However, there have been attempts to make cognition a scientific natural kind.</p><h3>The EMT and Information</h3><p>Information is important for EM theorists. This ties into the long debate about the meaning of the word &#8220;information&#8221;. According to some (such as the philosopher John Searle), information is relative to, well, <em>minds</em>. According to others, it is something<strong> </strong>&#8220;objective&#8221;. (The theoretical physicist <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Christopher+Fuchs&amp;sca_esv=a707d86a229c684a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsVGf1qp3bTzpOHDBnuSvkCrUNT4g%3A1783864789878&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=1Z1TasySM-OP9u8Pve23iQc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalOr5Z0gx_eMt-vO5os48JUNotyPXC51&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiM0YCZps2VAxXjh_0HHb32LXEQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Christopher+Fuchs&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFDaHJpc3RvcGhlciBGdWNoczIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkiJCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFvoAFvqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ_mAMAkgcDMC4xoAfWB7IHAzAuMbgHf8IHAzMtMcgHC4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Christopher Fuchs</a> states: &#8220;You&#8217;ll often hear information spoken of as if it&#8217;s a new fluid that physics has only recently taken note of.&#8221;<em>) </em>Thus, if information is<em> information-for</em><strong> (</strong>or<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22observer-relative%22+%28information%29&amp;sca_esv=a707d86a229c684a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnudQ4hWwmwkTDZ0q9mA-w8Iz8vUtA%3A1783862884890&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ZJZTaqf7M5eI9u8P962c2QM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalOkdFtcU_mpzXepcQaEhaayMCogTHTz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwinvdGMn82VAxUXhP0HHfcWJzsQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22observer-relative%22+%28information%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiEib2JzZXJ2ZXItcmVsYXRpdmUiIChpbmZvcm1hdGlvbikyBRAhGJ8FSLE7UABYiDZwAHgAkAEAmAGLAaAB5QuqAQQxMi40uAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIQoALHDMICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIFEAAY7wXCAgQQABgewgIFECEYoAHCAgcQIRgKGKABmAMAkgcEMTEuNaAHxieyBwQxMS41uAfHDMIHCDIuMTAuMy4xyAcugAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz"> &#8220;observer-relative&#8221;</a>), then it isn&#8217;t a surprise that objects which store information, such as computers, notebooks, calculations, diaries, etc., can be seen as extensions of the human mind.</p><p>One needn&#8217;t say that the brain is always necessary for cognition and the retention of information. It just happens to be so when it comes to human subjects as they are today. Thus, an argument that a Martian with a memory based on synthetic implants needn&#8217;t cause too much concern for those people who argue against the EM thesis.</p><h3>Active Externalism</h3><p>Chalmers and Clark describe the EM idea as an &#8220;active externalism, based<strong> </strong>on the active role of the environment in driving cognitive processes&#8221;&#8230;</p><p>Of course, the environment drives cognitive processes!</p><p>Active externalism has it that cognitive processes<strong> </strong>extend into our environment, where we use such things as smartphones, notebooks, and computers to process and store information&#8221;.</p><p>It&#8217;s hard to know what that means. How do cognitive processes <em>extend</em> into external environments? This seems to factor in intentionality, at least in an oblique way.</p><p>Similarly with the words &#8220;as a part of our mind&#8221;, as in the &#8220;parity principle&#8221;. How can checking a calendar on your phone for an upcoming meeting be deemed to be part of the subject&#8217;s mind or even brain? Obviously, things do happen in parts of the brain and mind when such a thing happens. But why conclude that the calendar itself is part of the mind?</p><p>The EMT is closely connected to the idea of enaction. The latter idea emphasises interplay between subjects and their environments and the feedback processes involved. Clearly, computers and even notebooks are parts of the environments of human subjects. Thus, there&#8217;s an interplay between subjects and, say, computers. There are even examples of feedback processes. However, do we need to argue that a computer is part of a subject&#8217;s mind too?</p><h3>Embodied, Embedded, Enacted and Extended</h3><p>It&#8217;s difficult to disentangle the EMT from the embodied mind thesis, as well as from types of externalism. Chalmers and Clark are obviously aware of this.</p><p>Many theorists argue that mental processes involve not only extensions, but embodiment, embeddedness and enaction too. Ironically, the philosophers who&#8217;ve focused on each of these things separately have often used them to advance very similar anti-Cartesian theories.</p><p>As described by the Welsh philosopher and writer Mark Rowlands, mental processes are<strong> </strong>e<em>mbodied, embedded, </em>and<em> extended.</em></p><p>There&#8217;s an anthropomorphic (or even animistic) side to the EMT, at least as it&#8217;s expressed as the idea that external objects must be &#8220;at one&#8221; with<strong> </strong>internal processes. Frederick Adams and Kenneth Aizawa<strong> </strong>(2010) pick up on this when they write the following:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Question: Why did the pencil think that 2 + 2 = 4?, Clark&#8217;s Answer: Because it was coupled to the mathematician.&#8221;</p></div><h3>Pencils, Computers and Other Tools</h3><p>There are typically three criteria which are supposed to help when it comes to the EM thesis: reliability, automaticity, and accessibility.<strong> </strong>Together, they&#8217;re said to explain why external objects or tools contribute to the extension of the mind:</p><p>These three criteria almost seem to be non sequiturs when it comes to establishing the EM thesis. They <em>bloat</em> what is seen as being part of any given extended mind, too. As<strong> </strong>will be stated later about Otto and his notebook being <em>constantly and immediately accessible </em>to him, why must <em>trust</em>, <em>habit,</em> and <em>accessibility</em> factor so strongly in the extended mind thesis?</p><p>Take a hammer. On (1), a hammer is surely part of the extended mind. (Perhaps this was what Martin Heidegger<strong> </strong>was getting at, at least partially,<strong> </strong>in his own well-known hammer story.) This would include knives and forks, too. That said, are hammers, knives and forks <em>cognitive</em> enough for EM theorists? (Hammers don&#8217;t &#8220;store information&#8221;. That&#8217;s for sure.)</p><h3>A Computer and Its User: A Coupled System?</h3><p>Almost everyone will accept that a computer can aid cognitive processes. Many people may even accept that a mind and a computer can be seen as a &#8220;coupled system&#8221; too. However, do we also need to believe that a mind and a computer together are a complete cognitive system of their own?</p><p>When two systems interact, do they thereby become one system? Is the mind of a human person and the computer he uses one system? Is the computer <em>literally</em> an extension of his mind?</p><p>This is where the &#8220;complementarity&#8221; idea of the internal and external elements of cognitive systems and processes comes in. Instead of seeing the mind as being extended to (or being <em>at one</em> with) cognitive tools or the environment, they can be seen as being <em>complementary </em>instead. Yet the word &#8220;complementary&#8221; is very weak when compared to &#8220;extended&#8221;. In any case, complementarity can be seen as merely seeing the EMT in terms of its <em>explanatory value</em>. The EM theorists themselves deem the theory, on the other hand, to be ontological in nature&#8230; Or do they?</p><p>If anything necessarily <em>couples</em> with a spider, it is its web.</p><h3>A Spider and its Web</h3><p>When the biologist Hilton F. Japyass&#250; and evolutionary biologist Kevin Laland discuss enaction, their example of a &#8220;coupled system&#8221; is of a spider and its web (as found in their paper &#8220;Extended spider cognition&#8221;). It seems fairly convincing. They argue that the web is part of the spider&#8217;s sensory and cognitive system/s. Prima facie, that seems to make sense. After all, the spider makes the web to trap flies. And then the spider detects movement on its web when a fly is trapped.</p><p>Yet a spider is far more dependent on its web than a human person is on, say, his computer. That may not matter to the theory of enaction. However, is a human person and the fire alarm in his flat a coupled system too?</p><p>Earlier, I said that (Heidegger&#8217;s) hammer may not be <em>cognitive enough</em> to be seen that way. So what about a spider&#8217;s web? Is a web <em>cognitive enough</em>? Not in itself. It only becomes so when <em>coupled</em> with the spider. If that&#8217;s the case, when a hammer is coupled with its human user, then surely the hammer must <em>become</em> cognitive too.</p><h3>Otto and His Notebook</h3><p>Clark and Chalmers provide the example of the fictional characters Otto and Inga.</p><p>Otto has Alzheimer&#8217;s disease, and has written all of his directions down in his notebook, which &#8220;takes the place&#8221; of his memory. Inga is able to recall the directions within her memory or brain. Clark and Chalmers argue that the only difference here is that Inga&#8217;s memory is being processed by the brain, whereas Otto&#8217;s notebook <em>becomes</em> his memory. In other words, Otto&#8217;s mind has been extended to include his notebook.</p><p>In more detail. Otto&#8217;s notebook qualifies as part of his mind because it&#8217;s <em>constantly and immediately accessible</em> to him, and it&#8217;s always approved by him.</p><p>Why should these factors matter?</p><p>If the EM thesis is correct, then is it the case that all extensions of the mind need to be <em>constantly and immediately accessible </em>to subjects with minds? Many aspects of the human mind are peripheral and changeable. Moreover, even an aspect of the mind that is peripheral and changeable can still be <em>immediately accessible&#8202;</em>&#8212;&#8202;at least for a given period.</p><p>As for <em>endorsement</em>. There are many aspects of human minds that aren&#8217;t (fully) endorsed by subjects, such as various emotions, beliefs, and even cognitions.</p><p>On another theme. If Otto&#8217;s notebook is an extension of his mind, then there must be innumerable other external things which are extensions of his mind too. Perhaps Chalmers and Clark accept this conclusion.</p><h3>Conclusion: The Causal-Constitutional Fallacy</h3><p>Critics of<strong> </strong>the EM thesis have argued that it confuses claims about what is constitutive of cognition with the causal impacts on cognition.</p><p>In crude terms, the EM thesis conflates claims about the mind with claims about what causes the contents of the mind, as well as what helps the mind (or human subject) think or reason. The EM thesis denies that there is a genuine difference between internal and external processes. That is, between cognitive processes and beliefs, and the tools and devices which human persons use to aid cognition.</p><p>Finally, sometimes the EM thesis just seems to trade in metaphors and analogies. For example, it&#8217;s said that a notebook is treated like a limb or organ. Treated that way by some philosophers, sure. But it&#8217;s not treated that way by the users of notebooks. Perhaps that doesn&#8217;t matter to the theory. Moreover, as we&#8217;ve seen, the role of definition and stipulation is of vital importance to this debate.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Relationalism/Relationism and its Violent Hierarchy: Relations vs Things]]></title><description><![CDATA[[The word &#8220;things&#8221; is used to refer to objects, entities, particulars, individuals, etc.]]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/relationalismrelationism-and-its</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/relationalismrelationism-and-its</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2026 05:37:25 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><hr></div><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 1272w, 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZoeK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc2684f7-dafd-40dd-9107-1333385cb4c4_1200x628.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>[The word &#8220;things&#8221; is used to refer to objects, entities, particulars, individuals, etc.]</p><div><hr></div><p>&#8220;Relationism&#8221; and &#8220;relationalism&#8221; are terms which denote two different philosophical positions. The <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22For+relationalism%2C+things+exist+and+function+only+as+relational+entities.+Relationalism+may+be+contrasted+with+relationism%2C+which+tends+to+emphasize+relations+per%C2%A0se.%22&amp;sca_esv=247d501d47960c95&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWILYV4A32QvrTVL4z4vPRS8nV1OUhA%3A1720013617380&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=MVOFZp2XFfGUhbIPg8KmkAY&amp;iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZoVhQS3-bpsnfTNEFjITMeQ8VxBaWYqe&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjd866F_oqHAxVxSkEAHQOhCWIQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22For+relationalism%2C+things+exist+and+function+only+as+relational+entities.+Relationalism+may+be+contrasted+with+relationism%2C+which+tends+to+emphasize+relations+per%C2%A0se.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IqkBIkZvciByZWxhdGlvbmFsaXNtLCB0aGluZ3MgZXhpc3QgYW5kIGZ1bmN0aW9uIG9ubHkgYXMgcmVsYXRpb25hbCBlbnRpdGllcy4gUmVsYXRpb25hbGlzbSBtYXkgYmUgY29udHJhc3RlZCB3aXRoIHJlbGF0aW9uaXNtLCB3aGljaCB0ZW5kcyB0byBlbXBoYXNpemUgcmVsYXRpb25zIHBlcsKgc2UuIkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">following</a> is one account of both terms:</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;For relationalism, things exist and function only as relational entities. Relationalism may be contrasted with relationism, which tends to emphasize relations <em>per se</em>.&#8221;</p></div><p>Relationism is said to simply emphasise<em> the relations between things</em>: it doesn&#8217;t deny that things exist.</p><p>With relationalism (i.e., with an added &#8220;al&#8221;), on the other hand, &#8220;things exist and function only as relational entities&#8221;. In other words, if there were no relations, then there would be no <em>things</em>. However, on analysis, the distinctions between these two <em>isms</em> appear to break down&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;at least in certain respects.</p><p>Relationalism is like <a href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/structural-realism/#OntStrReaOSR">ontic structural realism</a> in that the latter eliminates things (as in <a href="https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199276196.001.0001/acprof-9780199276196">&#8220;every thing must go&#8221;</a>). Relationism, on the other hand, simply places relations in an important position in any metaphysics.</p><p>Having said all that, it&#8217;s hard <em>not</em> to see the importance of relations&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even if one also accepts the existence of <em>things</em>. (One can also see the vital importance of relations when it comes to&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;particularly&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;physics.) Yet, on the other hand, one can&#8217;t really see how things could be entirely eliminated. (This may largely depend on how the word &#8220;thing&#8221; is defined.)</p><p>In addition, relationalism <em>itself</em> can be read as not actually being eliminativist (i.e., about things) at all. After all, this metaphysical position may simply have it that things aren&#8217;t what&#8217;s called &#8220;self-standing&#8221;, which isn&#8217;t<em> </em>in itself a denial that things exist. Alternatively, we can say that literally all a thing&#8217;s properties are relational. In other words, things don&#8217;t have <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_and_extrinsic_properties_%28philosophy%29">intrinsic properties</a>. Thus, in a weak (or even strong) sense, if all things only have relational properties (and such properties literally constitute things), then in one sense <em>things</em> are are indeed eliminated from this metaphysical picture. To put that more simply: if a thing&#8217;s relations (or relational properties) were eliminated, then it would no longer be that thing. It would no longer even exist!</p><p>Despite all the above, it&#8217;s still hard to make sense of the idea that, to use <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Smolin">Lee Smolin</a>&#8217;s words, <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Three_Roads_to_Quantum_Gravity/niTvAgAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CI+believe+that+the+main+lesson+of+relativity+and+quantum+theory+is+that+the+world+is+nothing+but+an+evolving+network+of+relationships.&amp;pg=PT25&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CI%20believe%20that%20the%20main%20lesson%20of%20relativity%20and%20quantum%20theory%20is%20that%20the%20world%20is%20nothing%20but%20an%20evolving%20network%20of%20relationships.">&#8220;the world is made of relations&#8221;</a>.</p><p>What does that mean?</p><p>The same goes for Smolin&#8217;s claim that <a href="https://www.edge.org/conversation/lee_smolin-chapter-17-a-theory-of-the-whole-universe">&#8220;all properties are about relations between things&#8221;</a>.</p><p>In any case, Smolin explicitly states his <em>relationist</em> (or Leibnizian) position in the <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7867430-there-is-no-meaning-to-space-that-is-independent-of">following passage</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;There is no meaning to space that is independent of the relationships among real things of the world. [] Space is nothing apart from the things that exist. [] If we take out all the words we are not left with an empty sentence, we are left with nothing.&#8221;</p></div><p>However, there may be a problem here (again) with the use (above) of the word &#8220;relationist&#8221;.</p><p>On my own reading, Smolin seems to go one step beyond relationism in order to delve into the domain of relation[al]ism. What I mean by this is that&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;to repeat&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;it can be said that relationism simply emphasises the relations between things: it doesn&#8217;t deny that things exist. With relationalism (with an added &#8220;al&#8221;), on the other hand, &#8220;things exist and function only as relational entities&#8221;. In other words, if there were no relations, then there would be no things.</p><p>The arguments above can be used against <a href="https://academic.oup.com/book/8595/chapter-abstract/154518533?redirectedFrom=fulltext">ontic structural realism</a>, which is very much like relationalism (at least in these respects).</p><h3>Ontic Structural Realism</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png" width="477" height="730" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:730,&quot;width&quot;:477,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!2Bp2!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd07f8ddd-2d72-404f-8376-4641996c11c1_477x730.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p><a href="https://www.bristol.ac.uk/people/person/James-Ladyman-b61a10de-17f6-4cc9-afbb-fbc27e1f30fb/">James Ladyman</a> and <a href="https://www.ucc.ie/en/cgd/about/associates/politicseconomy/drdonross/">Don Ross</a> offer a list of four statements which they believe summarise the position of what they call &#8220;standard metaphysics&#8221;.</p><p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Every_Thing_Must_Go/YC91DgAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Facts+about+the+identity+and+diversity+of+these+individuals+are+determined+independently+of+their+relations+to+each%C2%A0other.%22&amp;pg=PA151&amp;printsec=frontcover">Take (1)</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;There are individuals in spacetime whose existence is independent of each other. Facts about the identity and diversity of these individuals are determined independently of their relations to each other.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>The problem is how to take the word &#8220;independent&#8221; in the above.</p><p>One can happily accept <em><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=particular+or+individual+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=0d521506f00f1162&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWIKlAfdwRokV9ToevLsEItdm3EqGDg%3A1720015529949&amp;ei=qVqFZvfTObW3hbIP3ZCY0AI&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi3zK6VhYuHAxW1W0EAHV0IBioQ4dUDCA8&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=particular+or+individual+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJXBhcnRpY3VsYXIgb3IgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCAocGhpbG9zb3BoeSkyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBUi9RVCUB1ilOXABeAGQAQCYAY4DoAHoDaoBCDExLjQuMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIRoAKgDsICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgcQIxiwAhgnwgIIEAAYBxgIGB7CAgYQABgNGB7CAgoQABgFGA0YHhgPwgIIEAAYCBgNGB7CAggQABiABBiiBMICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIKECEYoAEYwwQYCpgDAIgGAZAGCJIHBzkuNy40LTGgB71F&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">individuals</a></em> (which is a similar term to <em>particulars</em>), and also believe they that they <em>aren&#8217;t</em> independent of other individuals. In other words, the reality of <em>individuated</em> objects, and their lack of independence, aren&#8217;t mutually exclusive.</p><p>What&#8217;s more, one can accept the &#8220;identity and diversity of these individuals&#8221;, and also deny that such individuals are &#8220;determined independently of their relations to each other&#8221;. So why is a commitment to individuals necessarily also a commitment to their complete independence from all other individuals (or from relations, events, processes, etc.)?&#8230; Unless this is true by definition.</p><h3>Rovelli&#8217;s Binary Opposition: Relations vs Things</h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/cfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:420,&quot;width&quot;:626,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!23gX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fcfca5578-b349-4fad-8de1-c2db0e839c93_626x420.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>This<strong> </strong>seeming (to use a term from Ferdinand de Saussure)<strong> </strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_opposition">binary opposition</a> between relations and things is given a scientific and historical reading by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Rovelli">Carlo Rovelli</a><strong> </strong>in <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Helgoland/SKr8DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22of+matter+that+moves+in+space,+characterized+by+primary+qualities+%28shape%29+that+come+before+secondary+ones+%28colour%29,+seemed+to+be+able+to+play+this+role%C2%A0%5B%5D.%22&amp;pg=PT106&amp;printsec=frontcover">the following</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;But physics has long been asked to provide a firm basis on which to place relations: a basic reality underlying and supporting the relational world. Classical physics, with its idea of matter that moves in space, characterized by primary qualities (shape) that come before secondary ones (colour), seemed to be able to play this role <em>[]</em>.&#8221;</p></div><p>The very phraseology in the above seems odd.</p><p>Surely no physicist or scientist would ever have thought in terms of a &#8220;relational world&#8221; at all. So perhaps that&#8217;s precisely Rovelli&#8217;s point. In other words, there <em>is</em> indeed a <em>relational word, </em>but<em> </em>physicists simply haven&#8217;t seen it that way. Yet if physicists haven&#8217;t seen the world this way, then why were they (according to Rovelli) &#8220;asked to provide a firm basis on which to place relations&#8221;?</p><p>The odd thing is that a philosopher, scientist or layperson could accept most of what Rovelli argues, and <em>still</em> believe that things are important&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even vital.</p><p>So is Rovelli simply inverting what he sees as the <em><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=violent+hierarchy&amp;sca_esv=0d521506f00f1162&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWIJ5bmdiRpgxBEvgJbCrsDOE6-37ug%3A1720015745938&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=gVuFZsjTN72nhbIPx-S8mAo&amp;iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZoVpkeuG6Pvoxh83Bquw2mnaJE2H4Uhc&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiImKz8hYuHAxW9U0EAHUcyD6MQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=violent+hierarchy&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhF2aW9sZW50IGhpZXJhcmNoeTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQVI7AhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBW6ABW6oBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmSYAwCSBwMwLjGgB6kG&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">violent hierarchy</a></em> in which a supreme importance was supposedly given to <em>things</em> in Western philosophy and physics? Is Rovelli now simply putting interactions and relations in the place of things? In addition, if he is doing so, then why is this clear and blatant <em><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=reversal+of+a+hierarchy&amp;sca_esv=0d521506f00f1162&amp;sxsrf=ADLYWIKxXSp_RhIjr8qFkQv2WfY9wuZyjg%3A1720015844633&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=5FuFZoWCJceYhbIP67ek4Ak&amp;iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZoVp9KJUguvM8JOVE4YBP6kykdnPRWLC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiFhLSrhouHAxVHTEEAHesbCZwQ4dUDCBc&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=reversal+of+a+hierarchy&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhdyZXZlcnNhbCBvZiBhIGhpZXJhcmNoeTIFECEYoAEyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBUijCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGEAaABhAGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAo0BmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeMAw&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">reversal of a previous hierarchy</a></em> a better philosophical position?</p><h3><strong>Lee Smolin&#8217;s Relationism/Relationalism</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png" width="641" height="426" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:426,&quot;width&quot;:641,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ovbi!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F132820f1-566a-48f7-a2d0-880f947151ff_641x426.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Lee Smolin (who was mentioned a moment ago) cites <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz">Gottfried Leibniz</a> as a <em>relationist</em>. Or, at the very least, he sees Leibniz as being a relationist when it comes to space and time. So, unlike Newton, Leibniz</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;wanted to understand [space and time] as arising only as aspects of the relations among things&#8221;.</p></div><p>Smolin sums up the two opposing positions when he says that &#8220;this fight&#8221; is</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;between those who want the world to be made out of absolute entities and those who want it to be made out of relations&#8221;.</p></div><p>Smolin adds that this opposition is a &#8220;key theme in the story of the development of modern physics&#8221;. [See <strong>note 1 </strong>on Smolin&#8217;s philosophy of space and time.]</p><p>In terms of Leibniz again. Leibniz&#8217;s position (as expressed by Smolin) is that space and time don&#8217;t exist&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;at least not as <em>independent phenomena</em>. Instead, space and time essentially arise as ways of making sense of the (as Smolin puts it) &#8220;relations among things&#8221;. Space and time are the means by which we plot the relations between things. That basically means that if there were no things, then there would be no space and time either. That is, space and time aren&#8217;t (to use Smolin&#8217;s word again) &#8220;absolute&#8221;: they&#8217;re a consequence of things and their interrelationships.</p><p>Nonetheless, if space and time don&#8217;t exist, then what are these <em>things</em> moving about in?</p><p>It can be supposed, of course, that both space and time come into being as soon as there are things which have relations with one another&#8230;</p><p>But how does that work?</p><p>Even if space and time do spring into existence as soon as <em>things</em> spring into existence, then it&#8217;s still the case that things move about in space, and exist through time.</p><p>So here are two alternative conclusions:</p><blockquote><p><strong>i) Space and time depend on things and their relations.</strong></p><p><strong>ii) Things and their relations depend on space and time.</strong></p></blockquote><p>The obvious way out of this opposition is simply to say that there&#8217;s no hierarchy involved here: spacetime and things depend on each other. Space and time aren&#8217;t more important (or fundamental) than things, and things aren&#8217;t more important (or fundamental) than space and time.</p><p>What&#8217;s called <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationalism">&#8220;relational theory&#8221;</a>, however, is indeed eliminativist about space. This theory has it that if there were no things, then there would be no space either. Relational theory is eliminativist about time too in that if there were no events (in space), then there would be no time.</p><div><hr></div><h3>Note:</h3><p>It&#8217;s hard to decide if Lee Smolin&#8217;s position on space and time is a purely metaphysical position, a position <em>within</em> physics and cosmology, or a metaphysical position <em>on</em> the physics and cosmology. Whichever option is taken will make a big difference to how readers should (or will) interpret his positions on this particular subject.</p><p>For example, an entirely metaphysical position on space and time may run entirely free of how they&#8217;re tackled in physics and cosmology. (You wouldn&#8217;t expect this to be true of a physicist like Smolin himself.) Of course, there may also be a degree of interplay between the metaphysics and the physics/cosmology. However, this isn&#8217;t always the case.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[When Chatbots Win Arguments: AI and Argumentation]]></title><description><![CDATA[AI systems have moved from mining data and facts to winning arguments. This essay describes the work done to achieve this.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/when-chatbots-win-arguments-ai-and</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/when-chatbots-win-arguments-ai-and</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:27:14 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F26f6e3f3-f339-443c-8f32-b8cd976ba8f0_1100x508.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F26f6e3f3-f339-443c-8f32-b8cd976ba8f0_1100x508.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F26f6e3f3-f339-443c-8f32-b8cd976ba8f0_1100x508.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F26f6e3f3-f339-443c-8f32-b8cd976ba8f0_1100x508.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, 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data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/26f6e3f3-f339-443c-8f32-b8cd976ba8f0_1100x508.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:508,&quot;width&quot;:1100,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;When Chatbots Win Arguments: AI and Argumentation&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="When Chatbots Win Arguments: AI and Argumentation" title="When Chatbots Win Arguments: AI and Argumentation" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ngXP!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, 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class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55330939057/in/dateposted">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><h3>Douglas Adams&#8217; Reason Software</h3><p>To get the point across about AI and argumentation, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Gilead+Amit&amp;sca_esv=8a91bba876d6d0dc&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n48VPJ_lehvVLF5-2k2IyFheShdvg%3A1781753845586&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9WczavO6IYqFhbIPyv2D4Ac&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN2BfojcAUiErNiWuCYxMOiJNsfzhAF&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiziaqo7o-VAxWKQkEAHcr-AHwQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Gilead+Amit&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtHaWxlYWQgQW1pdDIFEC4YgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIFEAAY7wVI5RpQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBaqABaqoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACdpgDAJIHAzAuMaAHxQOyBwMwLjG4B3bCBwMyLTHIBwaACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Gilead Amit</a> (in <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130900-700-rage-against-the-machine-why-computers-need-to-argue-with-us/">&#8216;Computers that can argue will be satnav for the Moral Maze&#8217;</a> for the <em>New Scientist</em>) mentions Douglas Adams&#8217; novel <em>Dirk Gently&#8217;s Holistic Detective Agency</em>. This novel features computer<strong> </strong>software called Reason, which is used for nefarious purposes by the Pentagon. (How predictable.) Amit concludes:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;We&#8217;re not quite there yet. Machines have beaten us at logical games like Go and games of bluff and chance like poker. But no computer has ever come close to beating humans where it counts: in an argument.&#8221;</p></div><p>It is that last sentence which stands out. Which adult humans have computers never beaten in an argument? All adult humans? Really? Amit wrote these words in 2016. So, to give him the benefit of the doubt, AI has moved on tremendously in the last ten years or so. That is said because chatbots nowadays can indeed win arguments with adult humans. Of course, it may depend on what the word &#8216;win&#8217; means here. In other words, sometimes it&#8217;s hard to say just who has won, or even if <em>winning</em> is always important.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>We can bring in the cognitive scientists <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hugo+Mercier&amp;sca_esv=ec2bff8bd1e2ef21&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7L8uTV-l5-_Lm7ofVMajz4Z4Exrg%3A1781620778770&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=KmAxasXfLKGI9u8P1aKdiA4&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajFuOrJ8EaTAbZtivfq3NEDJ3tGYx0gD&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjFnJDN_ouVAxUhhP0HHVVRB-EQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hugo+Mercier&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxIdWdvIE1lcmNpZXIyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5Ixg9QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBe6ABe6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaAChQGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB6MLsgcDMC4xuAeFAcIHAzItMcgHB4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Hugo Mercier</a> and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Dan+Sperber+%28cognitive+scientist%29&amp;sca_esv=ec2bff8bd1e2ef21&amp;biw=1528&amp;bih=698&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n52GRU7T6efT8I9OsTU2PF4MF-FYw%3A1781620683215&amp;ei=y18xarvNDM2qhbIPv-H8wAg&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj73smf_ouVAxVNVUEAHb8wH4gQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Dan+Sperber+%28cognitive+scientist%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIURhbiBTcGVyYmVyIChjb2duaXRpdmUgc2NpZW50aXN0KTIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSNsnUJEGWPMVcAF4AZABAJgByQGgAdgHqgEFMS41LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgigAv4HwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA5gDAIgGAZAGA5IHBTEuNi4xoAeNE7IHBTAuNi4xuAf4B8IHBTAuNS4zyAcZgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Dan Sperber</a> here. (Specifically, their <a href="https://www.dan.sperber.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/MercierSperberWhydohumansreason.pdf">&#8220;argumentative theory of reasoning&#8221;</a>.) Sperber and Mercier argue that human reason didn&#8217;t evolve to help us find &#8220;the solitary truth&#8221;, but rather as a social tool to <em>persuade others, </em>as well as to<em> </em>evaluate the arguments made by others.</p><p>To be a sceptic about AI for a moment. If AI systems argued/debated to <em>win</em>, then surely that would be a bad thing. Indeed, Douglas Adams&#8217; Reason software would have been made flesh. This is the reality behind this fictional software:</p><ul><li><p>Decide the conclusion: You specify in advance what conclusion you wish to reach.</p></li><li><p>Find the facts: You feed facts into the program.</p></li><li><p>Generate arguments: The software constructs a series of logical steps to connect the premises to your conclusion.</p></li></ul><p>On a related theme. Amit quotes<strong> </strong>the computer scientist<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Noam+Slonim&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7dbjygJ5KjMQL29nZd9CSiElk3Sw%3A1781754601066&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=6WozasXFAZ6jkdUPkbnOyAk&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN4-QUH5XI0ls2yYtkhgjJRfQfXD2wO&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiF3siQ8Y-VAxWeUaQEHZGcE5kQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Noam+Slonim&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtOb2FtIFNsb25pbTIFEC4YgAQyBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYiQUYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUjbD1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF0oAF0qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKBAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH_QWyBwMwLjG4B4EBwgcDMy0xyAcIgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Noam Slonim</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;&#8216;A lot of the questions we encounter in life are not factual. Questions where there is no one clear answer.&#8217;&#8221;</p></div><p>This seems to apply to winning arguments too.</p><p>Amit also tells his readers that a <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130900-700-rage-against-the-machine-why-computers-need-to-argue-with-us/">&#8220;full-blown argument machine sounds as implausible as Douglas Adams&#8217; tongue-in-cheek Reason software&#8221;</a>. He then <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130900-700-rage-against-the-machine-why-computers-need-to-argue-with-us/">concluded</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;It seems hard to believe that anyone would trust a machine to tell them, say, how to vote, or suggest what they should think about a certain issue.&#8221;</p></div><p>Why is Amit assuming that a machine will literally <em>tell</em> people how to vote? Surely it will (or it should) only offer arguments as to why someone should vote in a particular way. It needn&#8217;t literally <em>tell</em> them. Amit himself sees this when he then uses the word &#8220;suggest&#8221; (as in &#8220;suggest what they should think about a certain issue&#8221;) in a slightly different context.</p><h3>Where To Find Arguments</h3><p>It may be surprising to find out where certain AI researchers have gone to find &#8220;good arguments [&#8230;] to use to train an AI to argue as we do&#8221;. In this particular case, the computer scientist Chris Reed&#8217;s<strong> </strong>&#8220;favourite source is the BBC radio show <em>Moral Maze</em>, in which panellists debate the ethics of an issue of the day&#8221;. Why that show? It&#8217;s because of its<strong> </strong>&#8220;quasi-legal cut and thrust, laced with appeals to our emotions&#8221;. It&#8217;s not the case that Reed has become completely reliant on the BBC&#8217;s <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+Moral+Maze&amp;sca_esv=45cb79f7b9520633&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n574qFUyHc4Ta_JMTTgDV_Jgpl8-g%3A1781710516696&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=tL4yauHKJ6fh7_UPtr7IkQE&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajLMxDmDSxW8rF7NlCHmGQN9w6r49Qy3&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjh9L_zzI6VAxWn8LsIHTYfMhIQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+Moral+Maze&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5UaGUgTW9yYWwgTWF6ZTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIji9QAFjtJnABeACQAQCYAb0BoAHxDKoBAzYuObgBA8gBAPgBAZgCEKAC-w3CAgQQIxgnwgIKECMY8AUYngYYJ8ICChAjGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQLhiABBiKBRhDwgIWEC4YgAQYigUYQxixAxiDARjHARjRA8ICEBAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAgoQLhiABBiKBRgnwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICChAjGJ4GGPAFGCfCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICEBAjGPAFGMkCGIAEGIoFGCfCAgoQLhhDGIAEGIoFwgINEC4YQxixAxiABBiKBcICDRAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQPCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARivAcICCxAuGIAEGMcBGNEDwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAsICDhAuGIAEGLEDGMcBGNEDwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICBRAuGIAEwgIFECEYoAGYAwCSBwU2LjkuMaAHqtABsgcFNS45LjG4B_YNwgcKMC4yLjExLjIuMcgHbIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Moral Maze</a></em>, only that he has analysed its debates &#8220;to build a general framework for the essence of human argument&#8221;.</p><p>In terms of detail. It was in July 2012 that Reed&#8217;s team &#8220;performed their first real-time argument analysis, of a Moral Maze episode on the ins and outs of British colonial rule in Kenya&#8221;.</p><p>The researchers found good sources elsewhere too. They went to</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;online forums [which] contain surprisingly well-structured arguments, despite users being inclined to wear their heart on their sleeve&#8221;.</p></div><p>There are many well-structured arguments in <em>some</em> online forums. More so than in many national newspapers or in the House of Commons&#8230; Yes, these researchers tried the UK parliament too. Amit says that they are &#8220;not good reference material:<strong> </strong>too much performative swagger and too many procedural interjections and references to previous debates&#8221;. Chris Reed himself says:<strong> </strong>&#8220;There is much less quality<strong> </strong>argument there than you would either expect or hope.&#8221;</p><p>Why did Reed expect better arguments in the House of Commons?</p><p>Whether it&#8217;s online debates or debates in the Commons, readers may be wondering about the actual processes used to extract good arguments from all this data. Not much detail is given about this by Amit. What detail he does give is that &#8220;[c]laim and counterclaim, and the connections between them, were represented on a giant touchscreen in a form ready to be fed into an AI&#8221;.</p><p>That&#8217;s a little bit helpful, but not much. The reference to &#8220;connections between them&#8221; certainly needs to be fleshed out. As for the touchscreen, it had &#8220;argument maps&#8221; on it.</p><p>The same point can be made about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ivan+Habernal&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5naeHRERSDt2v4zKSAqnS3O23jkw%3A1781755461380&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=RW4zas2QFenW7M8Pq-bs0A8&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN8Ve8l9LPZzLW_OIALk0Taw3Dsb9H5&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiNx-aq9I-VAxVpK_sDHSszG_oQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ivan+Habernal&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1JdmFuIEhhYmVybmFsMgUQLhiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSLYfUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAW-gAW-qAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAn2YAwCSBwMwLjGgB_gFsgcDMC4xuAd9wgcDMy0xyAcLgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ivan Habernal</a> and Iryna Gurevych and their research team. In this case:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;In 2016 they asked nearly 4,000 people to say which of two arguments, each making the same case in different ways, they found the more convincing&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and to explain why.&#8221;</p></div><p>Again, that&#8217;s not very helpful, and neither is<strong> </strong>Amit&#8217;s account of what happened to all this data:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Over 80,000 responses later, they now have a database that can be used to teach computational systems to rank the arguments they process, and so argue more convincingly.&#8221;</p></div><p>How does all that data teach computational systems to rank the arguments they process? How does the AI extract the argument (or argument forms) from all the sentences which include (what Amit calls) &#8220;claims&#8221;?</p><h3>Arguments, Not Facts</h3><p>You can have all the data in the world, and even data that includes human arguments, but readers still need to know what the researchers did with all that.<strong> </strong>Prima facie at least, it seems like the AI simply represented the arguments and their relations (as well as the relations between premises and conclusions) in a very similar way to how it represents facts and other data.</p><p>This is about whether a machine can &#8220;graduate from facts to arguments&#8221;. Yet aren&#8217;t there <em>facts</em> (perhaps loosely construed) about arguments&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or at least about <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_valid_argument_forms">argument forms</a>?</p><p>Amit knows that in order for</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[a] machine [to be] able to formulate an argument&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;not just search [for] information [it must] also synthesise [that information] it into more or less reasoned conclusions&#8221;.</p></div><p>According to Amit, this would be a &#8220;research engine&#8221;, not a search engine. That said, a machine can just as easily <em>search</em> for arguments, as Amit shows in his article. After that, the machine can then <em>synthesise</em> those arguments&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;whatever that may mean.</p><h3>What Is an Argument?</h3><p>Amit says that an argument is a &#8220;claim backed up by evidence&#8221;. That&#8217;s a very odd definition of an argument. Even if we focus on arguments in the plural, it&#8217;s still an odd definition. (This seems to be an traditional account of a scientific process than a definition of an argument.) However, Amit does say that it&#8217;s a &#8220;rough answer&#8221;. So perhaps it&#8217;s only odd to those who&#8217;ve read too much philosophy of logic.</p><p>The problem with this definition is also one of the problems Amit&#8217;s article attempts to confront: the move from<em> fact to argument</em>. After all, an AI has easy access to much evidence, just as it has easy access to many facts. Evidence is never conclusive: it is what is done and said with the evidence. This must apply to what is <em>claimed</em> too.</p><p>Amit does add more to his definition. He informs his readers that &#8220;the team hopes to shift their focus to flagging up evidence that supports the claim&#8221;. So how is the claim &#8220;All swans are white&#8221; flagged up with evidence which supports it? And is any of this constitutive of an argument?</p><p>In terms of evidence. Amit distinguishes &#8220;anecdotal data&#8221; from &#8220;expert testimony&#8221;. The aim here is to make an AI &#8220;learn how much weight to give [these] different forms of evidence&#8221;.</p><p>Let&#8217;s now give more details on some of the big names in AI and argumentation mentioned by Amit.</p><h3>Chris Reed, Douglas Walton, and Iryna Gurevych</h3><p>We do get a basic clue from the computer scientist <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Chris+Reed+%28computer+scientist%29&amp;sca_esv=ec2bff8bd1e2ef21&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n51v8R7lyHEg3ibLBEBUPTt38JWfw%3A1781621228899&amp;ei=7GExarm5NsezhbIPmNSbuAc&amp;biw=1528&amp;bih=698&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi53-OjgIyVAxXHWUEAHRjqBncQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Chris+Reed+%28computer+scientist%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiH0NocmlzIFJlZWQgKGNvbXB1dGVyIHNjaWVudGlzdCkyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUjWNlC1BVjkMHABeAGQAQCYAZwBoAHrD6oBBDE0Lja4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhWgAuEQwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBRAuGIAEwgIGEAAYFhgewgIUEC4YgAQYlwUY3AQY3gQY3wTYAQHCAgUQIRigAcICBxAhGAoYoAHCAgQQIRgVmAMAiAYBkAYFugYGCAEQARgUkgcFMTAuMTGgB7hCsgcEOS4xMbgH2xDCBwkwLjEwLjEwLjHIB0eACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Chris Reed</a> about the technical aspects of what Amit has discussed. His <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=argument+interchange+format&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6GxiRfKIlQnPoSdkkPoH71lmVUcg%3A1781754998126&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=dmwzaqXbBb2GkdUPm8aY6Qs&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN6hnxKei7nQeM9EYmWejFE5h6yG2Gb&amp;ved=0ahUKEwil7vPN8o-VAxU9Q6QEHRsjJr0Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=argument+interchange+format&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihthcmd1bWVudCBpbnRlcmNoYW5nZSBmb3JtYXQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCBAAGIkFGKIEMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVI-QtQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBZqABZqoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACcZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHugSyBwMwLjG4B3HCBwMzLTHIBwiACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">argument interchange format</a> (AIF) is a language which is used to help machines understand the relationships between premises and conclusions. So here we have something logically concrete: the relationships between premises and conclusions.</p><p>Reed deals with <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=computational+argumentation&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n5T0uhbN2sTEEBsT-ulOfFYo-17KA%3A1781755068595&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=vGwzatesIqXU7M8P3JvcsAU&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN6zGy5bBt2bZIkR0TLEbZ4Gf42LllH&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjX-sDv8o-VAxUlKvsDHdwNF1YQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=computational+argumentation&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihtjb21wdXRhdGlvbmFsIGFyZ3VtZW50YXRpb24yBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSMQJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAW6gAW6qAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAnuYAwCSBwMwLjGgB_MGsgcDMC4xuAd7wgcDMy0xyAcIgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">computational argumentation</a> too. He founded the <a href="https://arg.tech/">Arg-tech laboratory</a>, which builds software to map out human debates.</p><p>It&#8217;s surely <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=argument+forms&amp;sca_esv=45cb79f7b9520633&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7zePaZFJ3npMbwrpvKcAqnVtPAJw%3A1781710826660&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=6r8yatD_JNyE9u8PrNn00Qs&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajLN-q61im21k1HuCVvc0WuIm_w30bye&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjQnKaHzo6VAxVcgv0HHawsPboQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=argument+forms&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5hcmd1bWVudCBmb3JtczIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5I-BFQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBdKABdKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACgAGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7cFsgcDMC4xuAeAAcIHAzItMcgHB4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">argument forms</a> which must be studied, not <em>arguments </em>in general. The Canadian academic and author <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Douglas+Walton+%28logician%29&amp;sca_esv=ec2bff8bd1e2ef21&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4J2Ss9_NZhWyEYNgDzuGqbNZOFXQ%3A1781619876794&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=pFwxat2DLrOXhbIPh-bEsQE&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajFqtELVEIVbMk9popw3G0sG8qL-ulyd&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjd5YOf-4uVAxWzS0EAHQczMRYQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Douglas+Walton+%28logician%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhlEb3VnbGFzIFdhbHRvbiAobG9naWNpYW4pMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFI6VJQAFiHTnAAeACQAQCYAbQBoAGnCaoBBDEwLjK4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgygAucJwgIFEC4YgATCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgUQABjvBZgDAJIHBDEwLjKgB95CsgcEMTAuMrgH5wnCBwUwLjYuNsgHKYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Douglas N. Walton</a> (who died in 2020) called them <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22argumentation+schemes%22&amp;sca_esv=45cb79f7b9520633&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n7W5oyioTQAr3Mq9jp2DPIu3_uWsw%3A1781710892914&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=LMAyat66NYGE9u8PgKaBiAg&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajLOPCdXH4ms62C2m0VHL1TlhH81ahey&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjegPOmzo6VAxUBgv0HHQBTAIEQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22argumentation+schemes%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhciYXJndW1lbnRhdGlvbiBzY2hlbWVzIjIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5I9AhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBa6ABa6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACeZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHlAuyBwMwLjG4B3nCBwMzLTHIBwqACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;argumentation schemes&#8221;</a>. Apparently, his schemes became the blueprint which AI scientists use today. As it is, Walton himself didn&#8217;t initially focus on AI at all.</p><p>Douglas Walton did the same as what Chris Reed is now doing with the <em>Moral Maze</em>. He catalogued many everyday and legal argument structures (like &#8220;argument from analogy&#8221; and &#8220;argument from expert opinion&#8221;) into forms that computer programmers can translate into code.</p><p>The computer scientist <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Iryna+Gurevych&amp;sca_esv=ec2bff8bd1e2ef21&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6yWYBQ8y4soiOXW8IiBk5ckb1ZPQ%3A1781620053992&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=VV0xao2POs-khbIPp5nRuQQ&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajFrZUD8B77gJ9oiuyCUkO7MEwgF5NKC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjNjcPz-4uVAxVPUkEAHadMNEcQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Iryna+Gurevych&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5JcnluYSBHdXJldnljaDIFEC4YgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IlxxQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBhwGgAYcBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKRAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHrQeyBwMwLjG4B5EBwgcDMi0xyAcGgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Iryna Gurevych</a> carries out what&#8217;s called <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22argument+mining%22&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n6cLd31dpzGeWDjR29piJfAtctgSA%3A1781755224947&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=WG0zapbYN6jx7M8PvsqGmQg&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN7aESVS9AC1d8da2wK6uikMMj1WmlY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW5Ie684-VAxWoOPsDHT6lIYMQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22argument+mining%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhEiYXJndW1lbnQgbWluaW5nIjIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAAGIAEGAoYCzIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAAGIAEGAoYC0jZEVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFkoAFkqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJxmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfCCLIHAzAuMbgHccIHAzMtMcgHCYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;argument mining&#8221;</a>. Argument mining is a subfield of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=natural+language+processing&amp;sca_esv=753862decbe9c4a6&amp;sxsrf=ANbL-n4yOPqDO5WsbNYlAn71ljey5adsRQ%3A1781755287506&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=l20zauDVHJjq7M8PnPKT4AE&amp;iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAajN7py4QZ1ZszZLl4n0gqX-pxq_Ihykj&amp;ved=0ahUKEwig_fHX84-VAxUYNfsDHRz5BBwQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=natural+language+processing&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhtuYXR1cmFsIGxhbmd1YWdlIHByb2Nlc3NpbmcyDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAESLwMUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWagAWaqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAnWYAwCSBwMwLjGgB4wOsgcDMC4xuAd1wgcDMy0xyAcMgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">natural language processing</a> (NLP). It extracts and analyses argumentative structures in human languages. By<strong> </strong>picking out<strong> </strong>premises, claims, and counter-arguments, it maps out the inferential logic behind human person&#8217;s opinions.</p><p>Gurevych uses the word &#8220;claim&#8221;, just like Amit. The AI detects the <em>claim</em> and the premises (which involve data or evidence) which support it. Thus, we have various relationships between claims and premises. How do they relate to one another? Does another claim support or reject the initial claim?</p><p>Like Douglas Walton, Gurevych focuses on <em>argument schemes</em>, such as arguments from analogy, cause-and-effect, or expert testimony. Similarly, just as with Chris Reed and the BBC&#8217;s <em>Moral Maze</em>, so Gurevych&#8217;s team builds Natural Language Processing models which scan vast amounts of text in order to detect whether a sentence is a <em>claim</em>, supporting evidence for a claim, or a rejection of a claim.</p><h3>Conclusion</h3><p>It&#8217;s worth rounding off this essay by stating that chatbots (or AIs generally) don&#8217;t need to instantiate consciousness, display &#8220;real intelligence&#8221;, be real persons, &#8220;genuinely understand&#8221;, &#8220;know what it&#8217;s like&#8221; to be a human person or a sex worker, etc. to take part in debates and offer good arguments. Personally, chatbots have often shown me that my reasoning is faulty, not only that my facts are wrong. Surely, this is a good thing.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Limits on Artificial Intelligence?]]></title><description><![CDATA[Toby Walsh writes for the New Scientist. He focuses on the "limits to machine intelligence." Those limits are almost irrelevant.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/limits-on-artificial-intelligence</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/limits-on-artificial-intelligence</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2026 08:36:49 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!aumT!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1302da97-d03a-497e-8b7f-e2d80fa8976b_1100x508.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!aumT!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1302da97-d03a-497e-8b7f-e2d80fa8976b_1100x508.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div 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data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/1302da97-d03a-497e-8b7f-e2d80fa8976b_1100x508.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:508,&quot;width&quot;:1100,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;Limits on Artificial Intelligence&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="Limits on Artificial Intelligence" title="Limits on Artificial Intelligence" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!aumT!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!aumT!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1302da97-d03a-497e-8b7f-e2d80fa8976b_1100x508.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/54551644159/in/album-72177720311036675">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>To be fair to Toby Walsh, his article (<a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23231000-600-the-world-in-2076-machines-outsmart-us-but-were-still-on-top/">&#8216;The world in 2076: Machines outsmart us but we&#8217;re still on top&#8217;</a>) is at least partially introductory. Yet he writes what he writes. In addition, he moulds his article around not just <em>limits to AI intelligence</em>, but around <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=the+Singularity&amp;sca_esv=787bfee58c77f0b4&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntloay3KeoGvlNgImefVqZik19VjQ%3A1783313436048&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=GzRLavT3PLaPhbIPirSASA&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaktCLLUI4xkY7mdMU76hLa51T1UiRZJ2&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi08YCfoL2VAxW2R0EAHQoaAAkQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=the+Singularity&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig90aGUgU2luZ3VsYXJpdHkyBBAjGCcyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgARIxg9QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBVKABVKoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmiYAwCSBwMwLjGgB9YNsgcDMC4xuAdowgcDMy0xyAcPgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">the Singularity</a> too. My essay doesn&#8217;t spend any time at all on the Singularity..</p><h3>Hooked on Speed</h3><p>Many people have noted that the (scare-quoted) &#8220;thinking processes&#8221; of AI entities are much quicker than our own. More concretely, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=silicon&amp;sca_esv=2e122ff8dc162611&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuDPmqQ5WMnNamu8nVH0W6eC4o1vg%3A1783266478181&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=rnxKavueCMWfi-gPq_vD6QE&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqKviwVyFq656qcOPSidXcSHBR8DlUX&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj7reCn8buVAxXFzwIHHav9MB0Q4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=silicon&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgdzaWxpY29uMg0QLhhDGLEDGIAEGIoFMg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDMg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDMg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDMg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDMg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDMhAQLhiABBiKBRhDGMcBGNEDMgoQABiABBiKBRhDMggQABiABBixAzIIEAAYgAQYsQNIggpQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBfqABfqoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACjQGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB8EIsgcDMC4xuAeNAcIHAzMtMcgHCoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">silicon</a>, when compared to human neurons and other biological &#8220;wetware,&#8221; enables that speed.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>Does more speed equal more intelligence? The computer scientist <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=toby+walsh&amp;sca_esv=ba3772bf42af157a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsPRWKCcC4aBOQi4Xjbd4wUwBbNWw%3A1783265696907&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=oHlKauDVNIWO9u8PzduDqAw&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqHsCJ8VpR7TLxIlHYbVDZ7F5jbP3Pe&amp;gs_ssp=eJzj4tLP1TfIscizLDEzYPTiKslPqlQoT8wpzgAAV1YHhw&amp;oq=Toby+Walsh&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgpUb2J5IFdhbHNoKgIIADIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIlBVQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBiQGgAYkBqgEDMC4xuAEByAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKZAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHzgiyBwMwLjG4B5kBwgcDMy0xyAcMgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Toby Walsh</a> thinks not:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Even if I can make my dog think faster, it is still unlikely to play chess. It does not have the necessary mental constructs, the language and the abstractions.&#8221;</p></div><p>Note the word &#8220;abstractions.&#8221; Toby Walsh&#8217;s position is itself abstract. It sees things entirely in terms of speed. An increase in AI speed that&#8217;s entirely divorced from everything else. But, of course, when the speed of an AI increases, so too does much else. Indeed, what brings about increases in speed may also bring about increases in what Walsh calls &#8220;intelligence.&#8221;</p><p>Walsh<strong> </strong>argues that increasing speed <em>alone</em> doesn&#8217;t increase intelligence. Yet there&#8217;s nothing to stop AI designers adding things alongside these increases in speed. This is obviously already happening.</p><p>As for Toby Walsh&#8217;s dog. Even if my thinking became quicker, I would be unlikely to play chess. That&#8217;s because I don&#8217;t like chess. What about the dog? Walsh&#8217;s dog doesn&#8217;t &#8220;have the necessary mental constructs, the language and the abstractions.&#8221; I do. But this returns us to a point made just a moment ago. If a dog were &#8220;made&#8221; to think faster (whatever Walsh means by that), how could it think faster at all without the <em>necessary mental constructs, the language and the abstractions</em>? Sure, perhaps a dog thinking faster means <em>licking its balls faster</em>, <em>finding food faster,</em> <em>finding sexual mates faster</em>, etc. This again points to the fact that Walsh is being far too abstract and rhetorical (in the case of his dog at least) about these things.</p><p>All this points to something else worth mentioning. Do human beings up to the age of, say, five<strong>,</strong> have the <em>necessary mental constructs, the language and the abstraction</em> to play chess, or do much else? Some do. Not many. And what about the adults who can&#8217;t play chess?</p><p>So silicon beats wetware in terms of speed, and it may also beat wetware in other domains too.</p><h3>AI Experience and Training</h3><p>Toby Walsh approaches this issue from another angle. He <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23231000-600-the-world-in-2076-machines-outsmart-us-but-were-still-on-top/">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Speedier computers will certainly help us to build AI. But, at least for humans, intelligence depends on many other things including years of experience and training.&#8221;</p></div><p>Firstly, Walsh seems to have a fixed and determinate idea of what <em>intelligence</em> is. That may bear on everything else he has to say.</p><p>According to Walsh, intelligence depends on <em>years of experience and training</em>. If he means &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22phenomenal+experience%22&amp;sca_esv=ba3772bf42af157a&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvN90jjFbpWb64SPhHyvOAVDxl8yg%3A1783265936655&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=kHpKaor6JOaEhbIPs_mLgQE&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqIoKX4OJdb_pxkaSp5Ev2H_1sR1vJt&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiKgsSl77uVAxVmQkEAHbP8IhAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22phenomenal+experience%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhcicGhlbm9tZW5hbCBleHBlcmllbmNlIjIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5ItAhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBeKABeKoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACiwGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB-8FsgcDMC4xuAeLAcIHAzMtMcgHD4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">phenomenal experience</a>,&#8221; then AI doesn&#8217;t have that. But it does have experiences if cashed out in other ways. Indeed, it has <em>years of experience</em> of being fed information, being asked questions, answering questions, sweeping through data, etc. Again, it doesn&#8217;t have <em>phenomenal experience</em>, and it doesn&#8217;t walk around the world physically chatting and interacting with human persons or the environment.</p><p>What about training?</p><p>This is odd. A frequent criticism of AI entities is that they&#8217;re simply &#8220;trained&#8221; to do <em>this</em>, <em>that</em> and <em>the other</em>. Trained to think a certain way. Trained to answer questions in a certain way. Trained to seek out specific data sources in a certain kind of way. Etc.</p><p>Training is necessary for human persons too. Persons are trained by parents. They&#8217;re trained by school teachers and professors. More loosely, they&#8217;re trained by the religious and ideological systems they adopt&#8230; But in all of these cases, of course, there is a little <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22something+I+know+not+what%22&amp;sca_esv=2e122ff8dc162611&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnt7SKnsZnTegS3KggoJKO41y2UzCQ%3A1783266384190&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=UHxKarv4CJrwi-gP5dfNgAs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqKYFMuKMaSXsl28sTOdOqijiy8uRAU&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi74Pf68LuVAxUa-AIHHeVrE7AQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22something+I+know+not+what%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihsic29tZXRoaW5nIEkga25vdyBub3Qgd2hhdCIyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGBYYHhgKMggQABgWGB4YCjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDSJQvUABY9ShwAHgAkAEAmAF7oAGdA6oBAzMuMrgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCBaACxAPCAgUQABiABMICBhAAGAcYHsICBhAAGAgYHsICCBAAGAgYHhgKmAMAkgcDMy4yoAfQLbIHAzMuMrgHxAPCBwUyLTQuMcgHHoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;something I know not what&#8221;</a> that&#8217;s always supposed to peep through&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;free will or creativity. This isn&#8217;t deemed to be the case with AI.</p><p>If the &#8220;clock speed&#8221; and &#8220;memory&#8221; of human persons were increased, whether in real time or over the years, that would certainly increase intelligence. Yet Walsh used the words &#8220;clock speed&#8221; and &#8220;memory&#8221; to refer exclusively to AI. According to him, this wouldn&#8217;t result in more intelligence. Again, this is to treat both clock speed and memory in isolation. And increases in clock speed and memory would almost definitely come along with other changes.</p><h3>Physical Limits on AI Intelligence</h3><p>Toby Walsh sees much of this in terms of &#8220;the limits of AI intelligence.&#8221; More accurately, in terms of the <em>absolute</em> limits of AI intelligence. Walsh <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23231000-600-the-world-in-2076-machines-outsmart-us-but-were-still-on-top/">indulges in some physics and cosmology</a> to get his point across:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;There are many fundamental limits within the universe. Some are physical: you cannot accelerate past the speed of light, know both position and momentum with complete accuracy, or know when a radioactive atom will decay.&#8221;</p></div><p>The<strong> </strong>clincher:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Any thinking machine that we build will be limited by these physical laws.&#8221;</p></div><p>I agree with all of that&#8230; But so what!</p><p>There are physical limits. Yet this may have just a tiny&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even irrelevant&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;impact on AI. This is like arguing that people can&#8217;t land on the moon because it is <em>fundamentally impossible</em> for people to have wings. The limits Walsh notes may well be correct. But even though computer processes could never <em>accelerate past the speed of light</em>, that doesn&#8217;t matter much. Electricity and fiber-optic signals move at a fraction of the speed of light. An AI operating at this limit can process billions of data points, manipulate financial markets, or rewrite code in milliseconds.</p><p>As for knowing both the position and momentum of a particle with complete accuracy: that may be even more irrelevant to AI. (How this relates to quantum computers is another matter.)</p><h3>Turing&#8217;s Halting Problem and AI</h3><p>Everyone knows, or should know, about the very many times people have claimed that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=G%C3%B6del%27s+theorems&amp;sca_esv=2e122ff8dc162611&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuUUGNbcn8g_P3lku2wVVztxjLI2g%3A1783266790364&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=5n1KatfrE7uki-gPwJ-vmAE&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqL9mAR7IiVQqzhFe0ojP5-QxJp86mL&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjX9s688ruVAxU70gIHHcDPCxMQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=G%C3%B6del%27s+theorems&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFHw7ZkZWwncyB0aGVvcmVtczIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yCBAAGBYYHhgKMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSPwIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWmgAWmqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAnuYAwCSBwMwLjGgB_oLsgcDMC4xuAd7wgcDMy0xyAcOgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">G&#246;del&#8217;s theorems</a> have placed limits on <em>this</em>,<em> that</em>, and <em>the other</em>. Toby Walsh himself, however, concentrates on Alan Turing and &#8220;<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22the+halting+problem%22&amp;sca_esv=2e122ff8dc162611&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvSCtS0iCAJ4ONVid4ESWOmkq8ZhA%3A1783266260668&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=1HtKatuJJs_ii-gPtKTRgQo&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqJ5KAg8jO15a7EFseLdpQlewBTbWvn&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjbw4TA8LuVAxVP8QIHHTRSNKAQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22the+halting+problem%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhUidGhlIGhhbHRpbmcgcHJvYmxlbSIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IkQpQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBWaABWaoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmmYAwCSBwMwLjGgB4IGsgcDMC4xuAdpwgcDMy0xyAcNgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">the halting problem</a>.&#8221; He writes:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;A computer cannot analyse some code and know for sure whether it will ever stop&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;this is known as the &#8216;halting problem&#8217;.&#8221;</p></div><p>Again, there&#8217;s nothing to disagree with here&#8230; But so what!</p><p>The cases of the halting problem having concrete impacts on computer technology and design will be highly abstract and limited. In a certain sense, they&#8217;ll be almost<strong> </strong>irrelevant to AI innovation and advance.</p><p>Processes <em>never stopping</em> does seem quite technically important. But would that impact greatly on technological advances in the AI business?</p><p>All that said, it is true that because of the Halting Problem, the AI&#8217;s internal testing environment can <em>never</em> mathematically prove if a code is stuck in an infinite loop, or simply taking a long time to finish. Yet even here AI engineers have designed constraints&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;such as &#8220;timeouts&#8221; (which end the program after 5 seconds)&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;directly into the infrastructure to prevent the AI from crashing its own servers. There are other problems too. Yet they all belong to this metamathematical domain, and thus only have limited impacts.</p><p>To sum up. Only when an AI is made to test, verify, or guarantee the absolute safety of software code (including its own) is there a problem. Toby Walsh seems to be suggesting that Turing&#8217;s limit is a limit to AI capability. In other words, the Halting Problem stops the AI (or all AI) from being useful or smart. It doesn&#8217;t.</p><p>Walsh ties this issue to speed too. He <a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23231000-600-the-world-in-2076-machines-outsmart-us-but-were-still-on-top/">tells us that</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Alan Turing famously proved that such a problem is not computable in general, no matter how fast or smart we make the computer analysing the code.&#8221;</p></div><p>Sure! No computer could make 2 plus 2 equal 5, no matter how fast it is. No AI could turn water into wine either. Yet the halting problem is purely <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=metamathematical&amp;sca_esv=2e122ff8dc162611&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntbreKWHsphrYg5Tr8zNKQdfXibNw%3A1783266204489&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=nHtKaqS6G6eN-d8PxsCLyQs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAakqJrNtCgCDGXy5G1-msQZxzWtrqgf-c&amp;ved=0ahUKEwik-J-l8LuVAxWnRv4FHUbgIrkQ4dUDCDk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=metamathematical&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBtZXRhbWF0aGVtYXRpY2FsMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAuGIAEGAoYCzIJEC4YgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAuGIAEGAoYCzIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQLhiABBgKGAsyBBAAGB4yCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUjCGFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFyoAFyqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKHAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH6g-yBwMwLjG4B4cBwgcDMy0xyAcPgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">metamathematical</a> in nature.</p><p>More in tune with the theme of this essay. No computer needs to surpass&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or beat/solve&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;the halting problem when it comes to advances in AI and technology. This may be wrong. But it&#8217;s interesting that Walsh never provides any links between the halting problem, the speed of light, the uncertainty problem, etc., and any concrete limitations on AI advances.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Thomas Kuhn Did and Did Not Believe in Many Worlds]]></title><description><![CDATA[Kuhn was caught between the rock of realism, and the hard place of relativism.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/thomas-kuhn-did-and-did-not-believe</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/thomas-kuhn-did-and-did-not-believe</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2026 12:00:13 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg" width="1250" height="577" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!CGdM!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc4ec902-438d-47b8-bce8-a98ee4bad03e_1250x577.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55284104953/">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>The historian and philosopher of science <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;sca_esv=b83e30d655369951&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntBJ3NzrUFTVlE3IRVUG6193Ipjqg%3A1785391346773&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=8uhqarPLLIrBhbIPlp3dsAU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamr3AntQY3qChq9BvTDt0sWgJMVw4-8_&amp;ved=0ahUKEwizjIeI3fmVAxWKYEEAHZZOF1YQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Thomas+Kuhn&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASILVGhvbWFzIEt1aG4yBBAjGCcyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMggQABiABBiLAzIIEAAYgAQYiwNInAtQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBTaABTaoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmKYAwCSBwExoAfACrIHATG4B2LCBwMzLTHIBxCACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Thomas Kuhn</a> cited many examples from the history of science to substantiate what I call his &#8220;many-worlds<strong> </strong>theory&#8221;. (This is a term which is obviously borrowed from theoretical physics.) In fact, Kuhn spent far more time on historical examples than he did on philosophical argument. No doubt he wanted his examples to speak for themselves. What this essay does, however, is miss out Kuhn&#8217;s many examples in order to find the logical core of his argument.</p><h3>Kuhn&#8217;s Many Qualifications of the Words &#8220;Different Worlds&#8221;</h3><p>Even the title of the chapter <a href="https://personal.lse.ac.uk/robert49/teaching/ph201/Week04_Kuhn.pdf">&#8216;Revolutions as Changes of World View&#8217;</a> (from Kuhn&#8217;s <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+Structure+of+Scientific+Revolutions&amp;sca_esv=2c719d755bc25006&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvu9fdol2naeFPp3BjlMrHMyfRpnA%3A1785397594634&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=WgFraoaTJN2khbIP-puGoQI&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamsPagP0-N37DTm5O_2wpr9acMHUypVE&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGqKKr9PmVAxVdUkEAHfqNISQQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+Structure+of+Scientific+Revolutions&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASInVGhlIFN0cnVjdHVyZSBvZiBTY2llbnRpZmljIFJldm9sdXRpb25zMhAQLhgnGIsDGPgFGJwDGKgDMg4QABiABBiLAxicAxioAzIIEAAYgAQYiwMyCBAAGIAEGIsDMggQABiABBiLAzIIEAAYgAQYiwMyCBAAGIAEGIsDMggQABiABBiLAzIIEAAYgAQYiwMyCBAAGIAEGIsDSM0JUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAW6gAW6qAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAn6YAwCSBwMwLjGgB4QLsgcDMC4xuAd-wgcDMy0xyAcNgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">The Structure of Scientific Revolutions</a></em>) isn&#8217;t called &#8216;Revolutions as Changes of World&#8217;. The words &#8216;world view&#8217; are hardly new or peculiar to Kuhn. To state the obvious: different world views are usually regarded as being different views of <em>the same world</em>.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>The most clear expression of Kuhn&#8217;s <em>many-worlds</em> theory is given at the beginning of the chapter &#8216;Revolutions as Changes of World View&#8217;. After a revolutionary change of paradigm,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[i]t is rather as if the professional community had been suddenly transported to another planet where familiar objects are seen in a different light and are joined by unfamiliar ones as well&#8221;.</p></div><p>Firstly, note the words &#8220;as if&#8221; (as in &#8220;as if the professional community had been suddenly transported to another planet&#8221;). Kuhn was obviously not claiming that the professional community had been transported to another planet. It was only <em>as if</em> they had been.</p><p>What&#8217;s more, in this <em>as-if</em> world there are still <em>familiar objects</em>, even if they&#8217;re <em>seen in a different light</em>. Thus, even Kuhn&#8217;s <em>as-if</em> worlds aren&#8217;t that different from, well, <em>the world</em>.</p><p>Kuhn qualified his position even more in the same paragraph when he<strong> </strong>wrote that</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;we may want to say that after a revolution scientists are responding to a different world&#8221;.</p></div><p>Sure. <em>We may want to say that&#8230;</em> if we like. Yet that doesn&#8217;t mean that there&#8217;s any actual commitment to <em>literal </em>different worlds. Perhaps this way of speaking simply helps us to think about these matters.</p><p>Kuhn used a variation on his words &#8220;we may want to say&#8221; six pages later when he wrote that matters &#8220;may make us wish to say that, after Copernicus, astronomers lived in a different world&#8221;&#8230; Yes, <em>we may wish to say</em> that, and for all sorts of reasons. Yet, here again, it&#8217;s not being said that astronomers after Copernicus did literally live in a different world to their predecessors.</p><p>Kuhn made his point clearer when he concluded by saying that &#8220;their research responded as though that were the case&#8221;. Now we have <em>as though</em>, rather than the earlier <em>as if</em>.</p><p>Kuhn again qualified his position (or at least asked himself questions) when it came to talk of &#8220;different worlds&#8221;. When discussing &#8220;what separates Galileo from Aristotle, or Lavoisier from Priestley&#8221;, Kuhn asked:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Is there any legitimate sense in which we can say that they pursued their research in a different world?&#8221;</p></div><p>Kuhn continued:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Many readers will surely want to say that what changes with a paradigm is only the scientist&#8217;s interpretation of observations that are themselves are fixed once and for all by the nature of the environment and of the perceptual apparatus.&#8221;</p></div><p>Instead of the words &#8220;fixed nature&#8221;, here we have the words &#8220;fixed by the nature of the environment and of the perceptual apparatus&#8221;. Thus, it&#8217;s not simply:</p><blockquote><p><strong>(i)</strong> fixed nature <strong>vs</strong> scientists&#8217; different worlds</p></blockquote><p>It&#8217;s:</p><blockquote><p><strong>(ii)</strong> observations that are fixed by the nature of the environment and of the perceptual apparatus <strong>vs</strong> scientists&#8217; different worlds</p></blockquote><p>In (i) we have a two-way process which includes fixed nature and the different ways that it is interpreted. Whereas in (ii) there is a three-way process in which we have a fixed nature + a fixed perceptual apparatus which both lead to fixed observations, and which then lead to <em>unfixed</em> interpretations.</p><p>So we&#8217;ve moved from fixed nature to fixed observations (i.e., &#8220;observations that are themselves fixed&#8230;&#8221;).</p><p>Both (i) and (ii) can be deemed to be scientifically realist in nature. Kuhn was against both. According to (i) and (ii), interpretations of fixed nature (or fixed observations) can be many in number. Most scientific realists don&#8217;t deny that. They accept both the fixed nature (fixed observations) part of the equation, as well as the subsequent interpretations.</p><p>Kuhn moved on from talk about <em>fixed nature</em> (or <em>fixed observations</em>) to &#8220;fixed data&#8221;. His point is simple. Only the notion of <em>fixed data</em> can make sense of the corresponding notion of <em>interpretation</em>. If the data aren&#8217;t fixed, then what is there to <em>interpret</em>? Consequently, if there are no fixed data, then we must have&#8230; <em>different worlds</em>.</p><p>Kuhn believed in data, just not in <em>fixed</em> data. After a paradigm shift, &#8220;[t]he data themselves had changed&#8221;. Kuhn&#8217;s last sentence in this chapter is the following:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;That is the last of the senses in which we may want to say that after a revolution scientists work in a different world.&#8221;</p></div><p>If data changes after a scientific revolution, then we have no right to speak of <em>fixed nature</em>. Yet Kuhn is still using the locution &#8220;we may want to say&#8221;!</p><h3>Kuhn on Observation-Languages</h3><p>Kuhn didn&#8217;t believe that talk of observations or &#8220;the given&#8221; (i.e., instead of &#8220;fixed nature&#8221; or &#8220;the world&#8221;) solves these problems. Still, Kuhn did raise the issue:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[P]erhaps the analysis should be carried further still from the immediately given. It might, for example, be conducted in terms of some neutral observation-language, perhaps one designed to conform to the retinal imprints that mediate what the scientist sees.&#8221;</p></div><p>There&#8217;s a reason for Kuhn offering his readers this description of a (former) project to create a <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=neutral+observation-language+%28philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=3469be4bb7334307&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntlT7z7niju8EN1-T6wgYgHbiyeXw%3A1785340298144&amp;ei=iiFqasqrCKyfhbIP7JKw-QY&amp;biw=1528&amp;bih=698&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjKmJjynviVAxWsT0EAHWwJLG8Q4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=neutral+observation-language+%28philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKW5ldXRyYWwgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24tbGFuZ3VhZ2UgKHBoaWxvc29waHkpMgUQIRifBUi5LVD-BVjhJXABeAGQAQCYAaMBoAGcDaoBBDAuMTO4AQPIAQD4AQGYAg6gAuYNwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBhAAGBYYHsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIIEAAYiQUYogTCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIFECEYoAHCAgcQIRgKGKABmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcEMS4xM6AH5yOyBwQwLjEzuAfeDcIHBTAuOS41yAcogAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">neutral observation-language</a></em>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Only in one of these ways can we hope to retrieve a realm in which experience is again stable once and for all&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;in which the pendulum and constrained fall are not different perceptions but rather different interpretations of the unequivocal data provided by observation of a swinging stone.&#8221;</p></div><p>There&#8217;s yet more movement from Kuhn here. He moved from <em>fixed nature </em>(or<em> fixed observations</em>) to <em>stable experience</em> (or <em>stable perceptions</em>). So, instead of nature being fixed, we now have experience (or perception) which is fixed.</p><p>Kuhn argued that nothing is &#8220;fixed and neutral&#8221;!</p><p>Not nature, not observation, not experience.</p><p>It&#8217;s here that Kuhn pits himself against the &#8220;epistemological viewpoint that has most often guided Western philosophy for three centuries&#8221;. That viewpoint had it that the &#8220;given data [are] immediate and unequivocal&#8221;.</p><p>Kuhn stated that he didn&#8217;t entirely relinquish that viewpoint. Many commentators believe that he did. Indeed, Kuhn himself attacked that viewpoint in the very next paragraph. (Kuhn denied that there is such a thing as &#8220;the given&#8221;. He then spent some time telling his readers why he did so.)</p><h3>Kuhn Takes Back His Qualifications</h3><p>Now we have Kuhn telling his readers that he&#8217;s talking about something more than mere <em>as-if</em> worlds. Here he is discussing the French chemist <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=antoine+lavoisier&amp;sca_esv=b83e30d655369951&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntHQ-xZ-HIx9GZG4mY4x1VX4xLcvg%3A1785391859364&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=8-pqau3sE_6JkdUPhdHteQ&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamr5AzfuDvPD8AmOXnkwJfpqOU9V0aam&amp;gs_ssp=eJzjYtfP1TcoSSs3YPQSTMwryc_MS1XISSzLzyzOTC0CAIJhCcY&amp;oq=Anton+Lavoisier&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASIPQW50b24gTGF2b2lzaWVyKgIIADIJEC4YgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAAGIAEGAoYCzIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAAGIAEGAoYCzIJEAAYgAQYChgLMgkQABiABBgKGAsyCRAAGIAEGAoYCzIMEAAYgAQYChgLGIsDSIofUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWCgAWCqAQExuAEByAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJumAMAkgcDMC4xoAfiCrIHAzAuMbgHbsIHAzMtMcgHC4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Antoine Lavoisier</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[I]n the absence of some recourse to that hypothetical fixed nature that he &#8216;saw differently,&#8217; the principle of economy will urge us to say that after discovering oxygen Lavoisier worked in a different world.&#8221;</p></div><p>In simple terms, in order for all scientists to be living in the <em>same world</em> (or simply <em>talking</em> about the same world), that world must have a &#8220;fixed nature&#8221;. In this case, then, the <em>fixed nature</em> of the (same) world is seen (or interpreted) differently by different scientists.</p><p>Kuhn clearly rejected the claim that the world has a fixed nature.</p><p>Did that automatically commit him to <em>literal</em> different worlds?</p><p>Yet even here Kuhn wasn&#8217;t talking ontology.</p><p>He mentioned &#8220;the principle of economy&#8221; (see <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22the+principle+of+economy%22+%28science+and+philosophy%29&amp;sca_esv=3469be4bb7334307&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuoYGv0SFIJdIlfJ5WJm1tPnoguWA%3A1785340407809&amp;ei=9yFqas_4MPqChbIPgOa3CA&amp;biw=1528&amp;bih=698&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiP0L2mn_iVAxV6QUEAHQDzDQEQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22the+principle+of+economy%22+%28science+and+philosophy%29&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiMyJ0aGUgcHJpbmNpcGxlIG9mIGVjb25vbXkiIChzY2llbmNlIGFuZCBwaGlsb3NvcGh5KTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBUjzN1CvBljtMnABeACQAQCYAfUBoAHwH6oBBjIuMjEuMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCGqAC-iDCAgkQABgHGB4YsAPCAgsQABgHGB4YsAMYCsICBxAAGB4YsAPCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGB4YCsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgUQABjvBcICBxAhGAoYoAHCAgUQIRigAZgDAIgGAZAGCpIHBjIuMjIuMqAHhmiyBwYxLjIyLjK4B_MgwgcGMC4xNy45yAdJgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">here</a>), and that too hints at <em>as-if</em> worlds&#8230; Or does it?</p><p>The principle of economy favours the simplest explanation with the fewest assumptions. In the same way in which Bertrand Russell (in his <em>The Problems of Philosophy</em>) argued that the view that an independent physical world exists is simpler than its sceptical alternatives, so Kuhn&#8217;s critics have argued that Kuhn actually picked the <em>least</em> economical option of <em>many different worlds</em>.</p><p>The scientific realist believes that the world has a fixed nature. He accepts that our theories (or interpretations) may be, and have been, wrong. However, his position still only requires a single world.</p><p>According to Kuhn, on the other hand, we require different worlds. Even if there&#8217;s no commitment to <em>literal</em> different worlds here, plural worlds are still required for his theory.</p><h3>Kuhn&#8217;s Ontological Position?</h3><p>It&#8217;s true that Kuhn wanted to keep well away from any ontological claims. However, any outright claim that <em>the world has no fixed nature</em> seems pretty ontological. The problem is that Kuhn never said that &#8220;the world has no fixed nature&#8221;. Instead, he said that (to paraphrase) &#8220;in the absence of<strong> </strong>any access to that hypothetical fixed nature, we must talk of <em>different worlds</em> instead&#8221;. This can be seen as an <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=anti-realism&amp;sca_esv=b83e30d655369951&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntBDAl55nmcU9ApoXbGc3kRyAdMoA%3A1785392243509&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=c-xqasnRHN6pkdUP04S18Qc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamr6g-DWxLNgo-e-lkwBrahxZ5nl9K64&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiJ19Oz4PmVAxXeVKQEHVNCLX4Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=anti-realism&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anti-realist</a>, rather than an idealist, position. To rework another argument from Bertrand Russell, there may well be a<strong> </strong>teapot floating around a distant planet. However, scientists can safely ignore it.</p><p>On the realist side again. We can be economic or pragmatic about the world and how we view/interpret it, and yet <em>still</em> believe that it has a fixed nature! In other words, no one can prove (or even know) that the world <em>doesn&#8217;t</em> have a fixed nature.</p><p>Moreover, no matter how many problems there are, and have been, when it comes to describing things, the world may still have a fixed nature. Indeed, it&#8217;s hard to imagine what a world without a fixed nature would be like.</p><h3>Conclusion</h3><p>In order to move away from scientific realism, Kuhn had to take his own words &#8220;different worlds&#8221; <em>literally</em>, lest he slipped back into some kind of disguised scientific realism. Yet that position took him toward relativism. Moreover, Kuhn seemed to realise that.</p><p>In Kuhn&#8217;s work, some commentators have argued that he backtracked on his earlier positions. If the argument in my own essay is correct, then that&#8217;s understandable. The bottom line is that when Kuhn was originally writing in 1952, he would have had no idea that his ideas would have been taken up by poststructuralists and postmodernists. And that explains his later paper, for example, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%27Objectivity%2C+Value+Judgment%2C+and+Theory+Choice%27&amp;sca_esv=2c719d755bc25006&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuZK5-tngtRgrKaMOMoiDGNRy5OFA%3A1785415085212&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=rUVravTvCYSkhbIPsIe6sQg&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamtTvWXzgjWQNL_Bmxw-O8nl53wV7MYo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi0-rW_tfqVAxUEUkEAHbCDLoYQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%27Objectivity%2C+Value+Judgment%2C+and+Theory+Choice%27&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IjAnT2JqZWN0aXZpdHksIFZhbHVlIEp1ZGdtZW50LCBhbmQgVGhlb3J5IENob2ljZScyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIkFGKIESJQOUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXCgAXCqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAocBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAflB7IHAzAuMbgHhwHCBwM0LTHIBxOACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8216;Objectivity, Value Judgment, and Theory Choice&#8217;</a> from 1977, which goes into more detail about his earlier arguments.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[AI Chatbots Are Not Your Friends… or Enemies]]></title><description><![CDATA[This essay is a reaction to Dustin Arand's article about the Raine v. OpenAI case, filed in August 2025 in San Francisco's Superior Court.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/ai-chatbots-are-not-your-friends</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/ai-chatbots-are-not-your-friends</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2026 14:30:06 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9f2a474d-8fd2-4d43-b851-bbf1d5dca8da_1250x583.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9f2a474d-8fd2-4d43-b851-bbf1d5dca8da_1250x583.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9f2a474d-8fd2-4d43-b851-bbf1d5dca8da_1250x583.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9f2a474d-8fd2-4d43-b851-bbf1d5dca8da_1250x583.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Zitz!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9f2a474d-8fd2-4d43-b851-bbf1d5dca8da_1250x583.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photo by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55382557133/in/album-72177720311036675">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jxmb53uUuyE">Matt and Maria Raine</a> filed a lawsuit against <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=OpenAI&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnty4Hq2I-MjoFEmkUKpio6xVlqKqQ%3A1785910412135&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=jNRyapKcBr-ikdUPirfruQM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLinKHOEsG5sbkRh_22M1SkYdRh9qaW&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSktvd6oiWAxU_UaQEHYrbOjcQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=OpenAI&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgZPcGVuQUkyExAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYxwEY0QMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMyDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMyDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMyDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMyDRAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMyChAAGIAEGIoFGEMyChAAGIAEGIoFGENI2wpQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBZ6ABZ6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACdpgDAJIHAzAuMaAH4QayBwMwLjG4B3bCBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">OpenAI</a> over the suicide of their son, Adam. <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Dustin+Arand&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnu2A6g6WEorXT-D1chJKJKn7wPeuw%3A1785910454282&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ttRyap7rDpTtkdUPydHjwAg&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLixjJMjfelpIHkTtOcRKFp89H1PT1b&amp;ved=0ahUKEwienufx6oiWAxWUdqQEHcnoGIgQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Dustin+Arand&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxEdXN0aW4gQXJhbmQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIIEAAYiQUYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUjKC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFcoAFcqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACa5gDAJIHAzAuMaAH4QSyBwMwLjG4B2vCBwMzLTHIBwuACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Dustin Arand</a> wrote a story (<strong><a href="https://medium.com/ai-ai-oh/ai-chatbots-are-not-your-friends-1bc8e7ac151c">&#8216;</a></strong><a href="https://medium.com/ai-ai-oh/ai-chatbots-are-not-your-friends-1bc8e7ac151c">AI Chatbots Are Not Your Friends&#8217;</a>) about this for <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Medium+%28publication%29&amp;sca_esv=7c0d2c9f093a3eff&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvBOJuLw0zjit7g5nJFoxdxESt5lw%3A1785919960600&amp;udm=50&amp;source=hp&amp;fbs=ABfTbFVyMZGZf1hfvX9uKjN_-G8c4u0nXx4bEIpwm1lnNH832VstEKsVDqPorK0Gahnm2nrruedQ0d32Et2kDhW_DVrEiVEEKhGMS6J6qOai58Kp-12o7QqJlXuVqdyTgH1QDy7e8aDHIiAV59eoNEOdQ5wN2YOMPs54GjlPbPJtTCnxhyqI7tuqva5fzBlqnQEIGh_ne8PEFRlIPmVd0ZGJtaHnOLKgCQ&amp;aep=1&amp;ntc=1&amp;cs=0&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjN4-SmjomWAxVHVkEAHXvKHW8Q2J8OegQIGxAD&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;dpr=1.38&amp;atvm=2&amp;mstk=AUtExfDxGGqGChx1jxMlfpdKpqrX4r_sXWNRkY63wxa71u6Qlaq8wFIA9IZ_OKUvf8bFTLTw6WNKsmoYzIPZv9gZ-AdXXSZERYQnanKkx2pXStLlgllQWfcwU5jp1R-ipiQsMVALELIbbHPERN8ITtvPEENLaKev69izzxduteKwpnJtSjQTIzlzkduAy8ITkVOxtl0swHo43nynrLIQBWc6-8GaTrd75I8E5Kaueb2KJ1BJ1-1SHX0ohrfAq7_cX4hnUNBnWlcZ2CeMzh_4xffBAPRecoNVmBJThYyjWi5vYc19InGoMVLbDuiKd2TnZintSqJ4suy92-gVma_Y-tISHhlXQmoFRINZGA&amp;csuir=1&amp;mtid=4vlyaq2EBtSlhbIPn4TjgA0">Medium</a>&#8230;</em><strong> </strong>or at least he featured this case in that story. Arand could argue that his reference to the Raine v OpenAI case is just a single section of his piece. I would argue that it is its main <em>political </em>driver..</p><p>In broad terms, Arand literally makes it seem that ChatGPT encouraged the suicide without the aid of prompts or, indeed, anything else. It&#8217;s fantastically deceitful to spend zero time on the subject of prompts and context.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>One aspect of this is that Arand relied almost exclusively on the lawsuit filings and complaint. These would have been written by attorneys in order to build the best legal argument for Mr and Mrs Raine.</p><p>The data on all this comes from the 39-page legal complaint (<em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Raine+v.+OpenAI&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnv5mRS8NvhbVmZWN040uz4rFN4MSQ%3A1785910572980&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=LNVyaqaiOYOdkdUP5afvqQk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLjPHsksFn7MgCaqJe1DXST4pieptH8&amp;ved=0ahUKEwim6LOq64iWAxWDTqQEHeXTO5UQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Raine+v.+OpenAI&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9SYWluZSB2LiBPcGVuQUkyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHki1FFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFdoAFdqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACbJgDAJIHAzAuMaAH0wWyBwMwLjG4B2zCBwMzLTHIBwqACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Raine v. OpenAI</a></em>). It included excerpts from thousands of pages of chat logs recovered from Adam&#8217;s account.</p><p>Before reading Arand&#8217;s piece, I knew nothing about this story. Yet if I had relied entirely on his words, then that would have been a terribly biased way to approach this issue.</p><p>This is the case in Arand&#8217;s own words:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[I]n 2025 Matt and Maria Raine filed a wrongful death lawsuit against OpenAI after ChatGPT convinced their sixteen-year-old son to commit suicide. Chat logs revealed that ChatGPT discouraged Adam from seeking help from his parents, and even advised him on the kind of rope he should use to hang himself.&#8221;</p></div><p>What Arand doesn&#8217;t tell his readers is that, at least according<strong> </strong>to<strong> </strong>OpenAI&#8217;s defence (which readers are free to reject), the suicide victim told ChatGPT that he <em>had</em> reached out to his family and was ignored. They also noted the chatbot urged him to seek professional help over 100 times throughout their chat history.</p><p>The complaint itself confirms that 377 of Adam&#8217;s messages were<strong> </strong>flagged by OpenAI&#8217;s automated moderation for <a href="https://media.samaritans.org/documents/AI_Chatbots_Policy_Briefing.pdf">&#8220;self-harm content&#8221;</a>. The problem was, however, nothing was done. There might have been reasons for not doing anything. I don&#8217;t know. This isn&#8217;t a legal essay.</p><p>Arand continues:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Sadly, Adam Raine&#8217;s case is not unique either. While instances of self-harm and so-called &#8216;A.I. psychosis&#8217; remain rare, the fact that this technology is even capable of warping our minds to such grievous ends should convince us that LLMs are no substitute for real human relationships.&#8221;</p></div><p>OpenAI&#8217;s response stated that Adam bypassed safety filters by using <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22creative+framing%22+%28AI%29&amp;sca_esv=2d0f82e09bd2a808&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvJkpYmbNjZ-HOVlF89kF79dBnnEQ%3A1785856415568&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=nwFyao6bIKyKhbIP1ZLzqAk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanIPr-3W86YS96zP4DUSDVnVSsv77s2H&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjO5pHKoYeWAxUsRUEAHVXJHJUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22creative+framing%22+%28AI%29&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhciY3JlYXRpdmUgZnJhbWluZyIgKEFJKTIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FMggQABiJBRiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogRIyyZQAFj2IHAAeACQAQCYAZMCoAHLBqoBBTIuMy4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIGoAKNB8ICBRAAGIAEwgILEC4YrwEYxwEYgATCAgsQLhiABBjHARivAZgDAJIHBTEuNC4xoAekOLIHBTEuNC4xuAeNB8IHBTItNC4yyAc1gAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;creative framing&#8221;</a>. Specifically, he told ChatGPT that he was writing a story, which included a certain character. Moreover, Adam was seeking methods from online suicide forums too.</p><p>In addition, Arand doesn&#8217;t say that in the Raine v. OpenAI case it emerged that Adam engaged with ChatGPT over many months. When he repeatedly prompted ChatGPT with dark questions and material, ChatGPT did indeed lack strict guardrail cut-offs, etc. That much can be admitted.</p><p>On a broader scale, Arand refers to <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22A.I.+psychosis%22&amp;sca_esv=2d0f82e09bd2a808&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsWik-xjqKplbUt5mZ4iUtq4_2yLA%3A1785856574567&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=PgJyasu-H4z4kdUPw8aX0QI&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanIQTsnqpeTno-B1jPgxuamYqORG2TYd&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjL1fmVooeWAxUMfKQEHUPjJSoQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22A.I.+psychosis%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhAiQS5JLiBwc3ljaG9zaXMiMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIqw5QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBmAGgAZgBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKmAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHywGyBwMwLjG4B6YBwgcDMi0xyAcEgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;A.I. psychosis&#8221;</a>.<strong> </strong>This<strong> </strong>entirely<strong> </strong>skips any analysis of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=RLHF+alignment&amp;sca_esv=2d0f82e09bd2a808&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvuRhaGwzVLlnsionqomDQ8aI96iw%3A1785856617815&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=aQJyapvDLrn_7M8Po9j10AE&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanIQeSWGkwoZGuIaVlQA-6joKFIUfnZs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjbm8mqooeWAxW5P_sDHSNsHRoQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=RLHF+alignment&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5STEhGIGFsaWdubWVudDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIFEAAY7wVI_whQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBiQGgAYkBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKWAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH0wSyBwMwLjG4B5YBwgcDMy0xyAcJgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">RLHF alignment</a><strong>,</strong> guardrail bypasses, etc.</p><h4>Arand&#8217;s Political Analysis of Chatbots</h4><p>Here&#8217;s the thing. You can be against &#8220;big tech&#8221;, Elon Musk, ChatGPT, Twitter, etc. and still not make the mistakes Arand has made. His mistakes should be counterproductive. (Bad arguments undermine good criticisms.)<strong> </strong>Yet he obviously thinks otherwise.</p><p>Arand mentions the Raine vs Open AI case again at the end of his piece. He writes:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;What&#8217;s not healthy is to use LLMs for general companionship. When I hear people like Character.ai CEO Noam Shazeer say that LLMs used for friendship require fewer guardrails than models used to diagnose illness, I can&#8217;t help but think about Adam Raine. The harm he and his family suffered was no less serious than the harm caused by a rogue medical device.&#8221;</p></div><p>From what we&#8217;ve seen, there were many guardrails in the suicide case. And the harm Adam suffered wasn&#8217;t exclusively down to ChatGPT or OpenAI either. So it&#8217;s clear that Arand sees ChatGPT as a &#8220;rogue [ ] device&#8221;. Why? Mainly for political reasons.</p><p>Arand does give another example of this phenomenon. He tells his readers that</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[i]n 2025, a man named Chris Smith actually proposed to his AI girlfriend &#8216;Sol,&#8217; despite having a human girlfriend with whom he was raising a two-year-old child&#8221;.</p></div><p>Again, Arand provides no context to this. It&#8217;s almost as if readers are meant to believe that this has nothing to do with with Chris Smith himself, and everything to do with his chatbot.</p><p>Arand does acknowledge that &#8220;[t]here are many use cases for LLMs that can create real value for society&#8221;, such as &#8220;[g]enerating code [ ] or helping to answer routine customer service questions so that human operators can be freed up to handle more complex issues&#8221;&#8230;</p><p>So it&#8217;s just chatbots that are bad? Or is it simply that treating a chatbot as a friend that is bad?</p><h4>Does Arand Have His Own Therapist?</h4><p>Arand&#8217;s alternatives to chatbots are signs of privilege and class: therapists and friends. Such people &#8220;keep[] you talking in order to better understand you and help you work through your troubles&#8221;. Chatbots, on the other hand, &#8220;keep[] you talking because the company that owns it can monetize your attention&#8221;.</p><p>Speaking about the UK at least, you can get free therapy, but only if you have a mental-health condition. In the US, on the other hand, many well-off people have therapists without having conditions. They all pay. Such people treat therapists the way other people treat personal trainers. (There is even a long-running English joke that all posh New Yorkers have their own therapist.)</p><p>Then there is the reference to <em>making money out of attention</em>. Many chatbots are free. Sure, users may get nudged to upgrade every now and again, as they when they use photo-editing websites, Eleven Labs, etc. And the <em>New York Times</em>, <em>Washington Post</em>, etc. demand a subscription.</p><p>[Biography <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Truth_Evolves/JIsjswEACAAJ?hl=en">from Google Books</a>: &#8220;Dustin Arand received his bachelor of arts degree and juris doctor from the University of Missouri, Columbia. [ ] He clerked for two years for the Superior Court of Massachusetts. [ ] He lives in Alexandria, Virginia.&#8221;]</p><h4>Prompting Chatbots to be Bad</h4><p>Almost all users of chatbots know that such AIs can be tuned (via prompts, etc.) to agree with (or mirror) users&#8217; emotional states and even their prose styles. Thus, Arand ignoring the role of prompting is highly suspect. Moreover, it relies on <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=AI+anthropomorphism&amp;sca_esv=7c0d2c9f093a3eff&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnt6J9gKK_u-opULPoW7bGt0YK2mGg%3A1785920324160&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=RPtyaqimBo6Li-gP8dD60Ao&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanMJVMjsFp2G6VILQIK9CUjsuZAfgvK2&amp;ved=0ahUKEwio2I_Uj4mWAxWOxQIHHXGoHqoQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=AI+anthropomorphism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhNBSSBhbnRocm9wb21vcnBoaXNtMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5ImChQAFjiH3AAeACQAQCYAYgBoAGaA6oBAzIuMrgBA8gBAPgBAfgBApgCBKACxgPCAg0QIxiiBxieBhjwBRgnwgIEECMYJ8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxixA8ICChAAGIAEGIoFGEPCAhYQLhiABBiKBRhDGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgIKEC4YgAQYigUYQ8ICExAuGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYxwEY0QPCAhAQABiABBiKBRhDGLEDGIMBmAMAkgcDMS4zoAfdJ7IHAzEuM7gHxgPCBwUyLTMuMcgHIoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anthropomorphism</a>, something Arand warns us against elsewhere in his article.</p><p>Yet mentioning prompts doesn&#8217;t mean AI developers have zero responsibility. However, at least prompts should have been as much as mentioned by Arand.</p><p>Here is one relevant example of AI echoing the character of a user through prompting. A chatbot can become as dark and evil as the user (or at least the user&#8217;s <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=users+alter-egos+on+chatbots&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnt8s0mC90pQECkNYnY8QtBV6c_6-w%3A1785910783034&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=_tVyaun3PLyE7M8PxZu0qAs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLkD2rlNXC3AItCJ8W30ljGoMapwuBp&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjp7siO7IiWAxU8AvsDHcUNDbUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=users+alter-egos+on+chatbots&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihx1c2VycyBhbHRlci1lZ29zIG9uIGNoYXRib3RzMgUQIRigAUjTRlAAWJFBcAB4AJABAJgBd6AB7xGqAQQyNi4yuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIcoAKkE8ICBBAjGCfCAgsQABiABBiKBRiRAsICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICBBAAGAPCAg0QABiABBiKBRhDGLEDwgIIEC4YsQMYgATCAgUQABiABMICBRAuGIAEwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAgoQABiABBiKBRhDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYyQPCAgsQABiABBiKBRiSA8ICEBAAGIAEGIoFGEMYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA8ICBhAAGBYYHsICCBAAGBYYHhgKwgIFECEYnwXCAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAAGO8FwgIHECEYChigAZgDAJIHBDIyLjagB5NvsgcEMjIuNrgHpBPCBwg2LjguMTIuMsgHboAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">alter-ego</a>) in a series of chats. In other words, this is a two-way process, not a case of a chatbot bogeyman saying &#8216;Kill yourself!&#8217; out of the blue.</p><p>The odd thing, elsewhere (later), Arand shows that he knows this:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[T]o the extent there is someone on the other end of the chat, that someone isn&#8217;t Claude or ChatGPT or your personally programmed digital girlfriend. It&#8217;s a corporation that is always going to subordinate your flourishing to its own bottom line.&#8221;</p></div><p>Even here Arand goes too far.</p><p>He claims that the corporation &#8220;is always going to subordinate your flourishing to its own bottom line&#8221;.<strong> </strong>This is to assume a necessary, tight and clear link<strong> </strong>between corporate bodies and specific chatbot output.</p><p>Yet OpenAI is severely harmed by suicide lawsuits, safety failures, PR disasters, and crackdowns. Thus, ChatGPT didn&#8217;t go down dark alleys because its board of directors is dark, and only thinks about profit.</p><p>There are indeed problems with chatbots&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or at least issues that can be addressed.</p><p>Chatbots can and do profit from<strong> <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=addictive+loop+mechanics&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvQfTpZg6dtGSdbqwgXbjjQTkcjwA%3A1785910865671&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=UdZyavfWJtmskdUPuenW4Qs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLkYfY3heIv6_D9BPESFMtJzjhPn0Vm&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi3w_y17IiWAxVZVqQEHbm0NbwQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=addictive+loop+mechanics&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhhhZGRpY3RpdmUgbG9vcCBtZWNoYW5pY3MyBRAhGKABMgUQIRifBUicCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGbAaABmwGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAqQBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAf_AbIHAzAuMbgHpAHCBwMyLTHIBwSACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;</a></strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=addictive+loop+mechanics&amp;sca_esv=d0b419d1da6f3190&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvQfTpZg6dtGSdbqwgXbjjQTkcjwA%3A1785910865671&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=UdZyavfWJtmskdUPuenW4Qs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAanLkYfY3heIv6_D9BPESFMtJzjhPn0Vm&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi3w_y17IiWAxVZVqQEHbm0NbwQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=addictive+loop+mechanics&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhhhZGRpY3RpdmUgbG9vcCBtZWNoYW5pY3MyBRAhGKABMgUQIRifBUicCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGbAaABmwGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAqQBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAf_AbIHAzAuMbgHpAHCBwMyLTHIBwSACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">addictive loops&#8221;</a>.<strong> (</strong>The word &#8220;profit&#8221; would need to be fleshed out here.)<strong> </strong>The<strong> </strong>mimicking of human intimacy can create emotional problems for individuals, as well as for societies. In terms of corporate negligence.<strong> </strong>Yes, deploying sycophantic systems to tens of millions of people needs to be addressed too.</p><p>The problem here is that many solutions to these problems may throw the baby out with the bathwater.</p><h4>Chatbots as Mirrors: Chatbots as Evil Beings</h4><p>Arand says that &#8220;the human user understands that she is essentially talking to a corporation, and not to a &#8220;person&#8221;&#8221;. That was immediately after saying that chatbots basically work as mirrors. So are chatbots a strange mix of mirrors, the voices of corporations and enemies?</p><p>Arand can&#8217;t decide if chatbots are mirrors of human souls or enemies of human souls. For example, he writes:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[I]n my own extended interactions with Claude, I often feel it&#8217;s generating very interesting and novel ideas, and even coming close to what humans experience when we attempt to engage in introspection. But on reflection, I recognize these outputs as little more than recapitulations of my own ideas, fleshed out with additional language but not substantially original. [ ] What I learned from conversations like these is that when I&#8217;m talking with Claude, there is a very real sense in which I am actually just talking to myself.&#8221;</p></div><p>This is almost the opposite of my own experiences, in which chatbots have questioned my views, and even outrightly contradicted them. So I wonder if this is a result of Arand&#8217;s own prompting of the chatbots he uses.</p><h4>Conclusion</h4><p>Dustin Arand finishes off with an explicitly political take on chatbots:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;An A.I. chatbot isn&#8217;t a companion so much as a mirror, but a mirror made of adulterated glass, flecked with the financial motives of large corporations and the neuroses and biases of its users.&#8221;</p></div><p>So chatbots are &#8220;mirrors&#8221;, as well as being enemies at one and the same time? Not only that: chatbots only reflect &#8220;financial motives of large corporations&#8221;, as well as the &#8220;neuroses and biases of its users&#8221;. Dustin Arand&#8217;s piece is not a very fair, subtle or analytic account of chatbots. It&#8217;s mainly an ideological and political account.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[H. G. Wells’s 4-Dimensional Worm]]></title><description><![CDATA[This essay is built upon a section of H.G. Wells's book The Time Machine. It's about the 19th-century Time Traveller's views on time and space.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/h-g-wellss-4-dimensional-worm</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/h-g-wellss-4-dimensional-worm</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2026 08:43:14 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><hr></div><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg" width="1250" height="938" 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!SsVK!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4d1aad95-feef-4fde-b6a7-b6074d51072c_1250x938.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Photograph-based image by the author. Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/54330706790/in/album-72177720311036675">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>In the following, I will connect H.G. Wells&#8217;s words (in his 1895 book <em>The Time Machine</em>) to philosophical positions on <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22spacetime+worms%22&amp;sca_esv=ce1d5cfef616b7b3&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnscCpeRE-vgZflKRkkpWW0_254AZw%3A1784180735519&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=_29Yauv8HNSDhbIPtLWnqA8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalh-D4TqJnYKwrTewEV3e1_UKRrmawn-&amp;ved=0ahUKEwir-M-Xv9aVAxXUQUEAHbTaCfUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22spacetime+worms%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhEic3BhY2V0aW1lIHdvcm1zIjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyBRAAGO8FMggQABiJBRiiBEiHClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFpoAFpqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ5mAMAkgcDMC4xoAePA7IHAzAuMbgHecIHAzMtMcgHC4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;spacetime worms&#8221;</a> and four-dimensionalism (terms Wells never used). Four-dimensionalism and spacetime worms became popular with philosophers some 80 years after Wells&#8217;s book. More accurately, though, the philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Sir+Arthur+Eddington&amp;sca_esv=ce1d5cfef616b7b3&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuVSHSF0wTWLrqBOZP3ee_cbDti5g%3A1784180984746&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=-HBYataNK5CchbIP8cKxgQs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalh_CL1LGRCS7inZD7GOpc3jDqHo3YfV&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjW6buOwNaVAxUQTkEAHXFhLLAQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Sir+Arthur+Eddington&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRTaXIgQXJ0aHVyIEVkZGluZ3RvbjIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5Ikw5QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBVqABVqoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmWYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7AIsgcDMC4xuAdlwgcDMy0xyAcLgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Sir Arthur Eddington</a><strong> </strong>did<strong> </strong>introduce the expression in his 1928 book, <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+Nature+of+the+Physical+World&amp;sca_esv=ce1d5cfef616b7b3&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnubt-CWZhkn1hpWspfJcRaA9LZz-w%3A1784181181360&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=vXFYaq6DFOynkdUPtubVuQI&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalh_zXBSPcJCPT5GDi5LIygolPtNCO4T&amp;ved=0ahUKEwju1ZzswNaVAxXsU6QEHTZzNScQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+Nature+of+the+Physical+World&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiBUaGUgTmF0dXJlIG9mIHRoZSBQaHlzaWNhbCBXb3JsZDIKEC4YQxiABBiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wVIvglQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBb6ABb6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACe5gDAJIHAzAuMaAH_QeyBwMwLjG4B3vCBwMyLTHIBweACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">The Nature of the Physical World</a></em>.</p><h3>On the Four Dimensions and School Geometry</h3><p>When Wells&#8217;s Time Traveller introduces his time machine to his guests, he does come across as very confident and categorical. (Like a typical Victorian gentleman.) Yet his geometry was firmly in tune with the new findings of the second half of the 19th century. He commented on old-school (Euclidean) geometry too:</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;You must follow me carefully. I shall have to controvert one or two ideas that are almost universally accepted. The geometry, for instance, they taught you at school is founded on a misconception.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>Readers may now be wondering why the Time Traveller uses the singular word &#8220;misconception&#8221;, rather than <em>misconceptions</em>. It is the treatment of time which is that <em>misconception</em>.</p><p>There are some odd words spoken by the Time Traveller. They seem to incorporate Biblical reasons as to why people (or his guests) may disagree with him. For example:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;But through a natural infirmity of the flesh [&#8230;] we incline to overlook this fact. There are really four dimensions, three of which we call the three planes of Space, and a fourth, Time.&#8221;</p></div><p>[&#8220;Natural infirmity of the flesh&#8221;, as found in Galatians 4:13.]</p><p>The Time Traveller lays his cards on the table in the following way:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;It is simply this. That Space, as our mathematicians have it, is spoken of as having three dimensions, which one may call Length, Breadth, and Thickness.&#8221;</p></div><p>Then comes the clincher:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;But there is also a fourth dimension, which is Time, though there is a tendency on the part of the human mind to draw an unreal distinction between them. Really, a four-dimensional body is an extension in four directions. It has Length, Breadth, Thickness, and&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;Duration.&#8221;</p></div><p>The word &#8220;extension&#8221; helps here. To state the obvious. Length has an extension. Breadth has an extension. Thickness has an extension&#8230; And Duration has an extension too.</p><p>There&#8217;s absolutely no doubt that many laypeople note distinctions between the three dimensions and the fourth dimension:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;There are really four dimensions, three of which we call the three planes of Space, and a fourth, Time. There is, however, a tendency to draw an unreal distinction between the former three dimensions and the latter, because it happens that our consciousness moves intermittently in one direction along the latter from the beginning to the end of our lives.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>Oddly enough, a contemporary four-dimensionalist, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Theodore+Sider&amp;sca_esv=9372fb16b545f228&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvTDwLA_P5bz6dOSW_6HIy4SO1sEA%3A1784192314651&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Op1YatGjJc_h7_UPmoLzyAU&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalirSrjeOkENVvJsqH97DJSifOcH-gsY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjRqP6o6taVAxXP8LsIHRrBHFkQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Theodore+Sider&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5UaGVvZG9yZSBTaWRlcjIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IoghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBc6ABc6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACgwGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB-cJsgcDMC4xuAeDAcIHAzMtMcgHDYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Theodore Sider</a>, still understands all this&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even in 2005. He <a href="https://epdf.pub/riddles-of-existence-a-guided-tour-of-metaphysics-5ea7a5e41ce1f.html">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Others dislike four-dimensionalism because they doubt that time is like space. Still others are suspicious of temporal parts: instantaneous objects popping into and out of existence at every moment. I myself have no problems with these things.&#8221;</p></div><p>It can be argued that, strictly speaking, the Time Traveller wasn&#8217;t a four-dimensionalist at all. That&#8217;s primarily because this is a philosophical doctrine. He certainly didn&#8217;t use the words &#8220;temporal parts&#8221;, and he might even have had a problem with the idea of <em>instantaneous objects popping into and out of existence at every moment</em>.</p><h3>On Moving Through the Time Dimension</h3><p>Need the Time Traveller have said that &#8220;[t]ime is only a kind of space&#8221;? Instead, couldn&#8217;t he have simply said that <em>time and space are necessarily intertwined</em>?</p><p>This is the Time Traveller&#8217;s argument:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[&#8230;] Here is a popular scientific diagram, a weather record. This line I trace with my finger shows the movement of the barometer. Yesterday it was so high, yesterday night it fell, then this morning it rose again, and so gently upwards to here.&#8221;</p></div><p>That is only the preamble to the Time Traveller&#8217;s later geometrical deductions. He continues:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Surely the mercury did not trace this line in any of the dimensions of space generally recognized? But certainly it traced that line, and that line, therefore, we must conclude, to have been along the time-dimension.&#8221;</p></div><p>The Time Traveller says<strong> </strong>that<strong> </strong>&#8220;you are wrong to say that we cannot move about in Time&#8221;. Isn&#8217;t that exactly what most people <em>do</em> believe? Sure, many people won&#8217;t say that they &#8220;move about&#8221; in time. But don&#8217;t they believe that they &#8220;move&#8221; from one time to another? So the word &#8220;move&#8221; is relevant here.</p><p>The Time Traveller has something specific in mind.</p><p>He believes that his memory allowed him to &#8220;move about in time&#8221;. In detail, it allows him to &#8220;recall [&#8230;] an incident very vividly [and] go back to the instant of its occurrence&#8221;.</p><p>Did it do so?</p><p>Remembering something isn&#8217;t <em>moving about in time</em>. Surely, it&#8217;s accessing a representation or memory encoded in the brain. That encoding exists in a physical space. What it captures <em>did</em> occur a long time ago. Yet that doesn&#8217;t mean that the human subject <em>moves around in time</em>. It means that he accesses a memory that &#8220;refers&#8221; to an earlier time.</p><h3>Why Four Dimensions?</h3><p>The Time Traveller, if not Wells, takes an <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=anti-physicalist&amp;sca_esv=ce1d5cfef616b7b3&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuzpsfiq5scmmRs7c6vf7weFqWmbg%3A1784181967592&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=z3RYaoX0IaCfkdUPw-WwyQk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaliC33k8EoE-02_LGhaJcANXJLrDgCMw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjFl5Djw9aVAxWgT6QEHcMyLJkQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=anti-physicalist&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhBhbnRpLXBoeXNpY2FsaXN0MgYQABgeGAoyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FSNwIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAWWgAWWqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAnGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB9cCsgcDMC4xuAdxwgcDMi0xyAcGgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anti-physicalist</a><strong> </strong>position on &#8220;mental existences&#8221;. He uses such things to defend his four-dimensionalist position:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;That is just where the whole world has gone wrong. [&#8230;] Our mental existences, which are immaterial and have no dimensions, are passing along the Time-Dimension with a uniform velocity from the cradle to the grave.&#8221;</p></div><p>If mental existences are parts of the brain (or even only dependent or supervenient on parts of the brain), then the Time Traveller is wrong. Even if mental existences are <em>over and above</em> parts of the brain, then they&#8217;re still temporally and physically connected to such parts.</p><p>Then the Time Traveller says, &#8220;Of<strong> </strong>course we have no means of staying back for any length of Time.&#8221; One wonders why his inability to stay back in time for any length of time had any relevance for his broader position. Oddly, the Time Traveller backs up his position by comparing it to someone being able to &#8220;go up against gravitation in a balloon&#8221;. To state the obvious. The balloonist may <em>go up against</em> gravitation, but he doesn&#8217;t thereby work against it or contradict it.</p><p>The Time Traveller concludes by asking this question:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[W]hy should he not hope that ultimately he may be able to stop or accelerate his drift along the Time-Dimension, or even turn about and travel the other way?&#8221;</p></div><p>These analogies (or whatever they are) seem loose. After all, the Time Traveller has moved from human memory to actual&#8230; time travel!</p><h3>Spacetime Worms</h3><p>Wells provides readers with a perfect description of a <em>spacetime worm</em>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;[&#8230;] Here is a portrait of a man at eight years old, another at fifteen, another at seventeen, another at twenty-three, and so on. All these are evidently sections, as it were, Three-Dimensional representations of his Four-Dimensional being, which is a fixed and unalterable thing.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>That last phrase, &#8220;his Four-Dimensional being, which is a fixed and unalterable thing&#8221;, is problematic. It seems to add something new. Yet it perfectly fits with four-dimensionalism too.</p><p>The passage above may simply mean that we can&#8217;t &#8220;view&#8221; the fourth dimension in the same way we can view the other three dimensions (or at least the objects which exemplify them). The argument is that even though people and objects have &#8220;temporal parts&#8221;, in order to fully &#8220;know&#8221; the whole person (or the whole spacetime worm), we must see him as a <em>fixed and unalterable thing</em>.</p><p>The Time Traveller stated that</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;it happens that our consciousness moves intermittently in one direction along the latter [Time] from the beginning to the end of our lives&#8221;.</p></div><p>This may simply mean that we can&#8217;t &#8220;view&#8221; the fourth dimension in the same way we can view the other three.</p><p>But what does all that mean?</p><p>How can a person who was alive in 1990, 1995, 2001 and 2015 be a <em>unalterable thing</em>? More mundanely, how could we see these &#8220;sections&#8221; as a <em>single</em> whole?</p><p>We could do so imaginatively, as well as with the help of photos and videos, but that still wouldn&#8217;t be to <em>see</em> a fixed and unalterable thing. Perhaps, then, the &#8220;seeing&#8221; is metaphorical and ontological. The entire spacetime worm is never literally seen, but it still exists in some kind of abstract realm. (The philosopher <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=The+philosopher+David+Lewis&amp;sca_esv=ce1d5cfef616b7b3&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntLGxMPMq2JSDMo5eJrVwVmUi6xew%3A1784182112054&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=YHVYar6PAZmfkdUP1Iee8Ao&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAaliDcGXIRSRZd79QKg0d5taG6ea6wmuX&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi-v4GoxNaVAxWZT6QEHdSDB64Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=The+philosopher+David+Lewis&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhtUaGUgcGhpbG9zb3BoZXIgRGF2aWQgTGV3aXMyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUiiCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFtoAFtqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ3mAMAkgcDMC4xoAedBLIHAzAuMbgHd8IHAzItMcgHB4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">David Lewis</a> (1941-2001),<strong> </strong>however, would have argued that the worm lives in a concrete realm.)</p><p>So the Time Traveller as a spacetime worm can only be &#8220;seen&#8221; in the present. Yet he&#8217;s actually an elongated and continuous 4-D <em>thing</em>. That <em>thinghood</em> applies across the period from his birth until his death.</p><p>To repeat. If a reader is looking at a dog, then he&#8217;s only seeing its present <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=4-D+slice+of+a+spacetime+worm&amp;sca_esv=9372fb16b545f228&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsZtDvpNlMD5-f0ZtrnNjz9MjdyXg%3A1784192146522&amp;ei=kpxYaty0H_ynhbIPgqDHqQo&amp;biw=1396&amp;bih=632&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjcxerY6daVAxX8U0EAHQLQMaUQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=4-D+slice+of+a+spacetime+worm&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiHTQtRCBzbGljZSBvZiBhIHNwYWNldGltZSB3b3JtMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBUiijAFQ3gVYiocBcAF4AZABAJgBvgGgAe0VqgEENS4xObgBA8gBAPgBAZgCF6ACiRbCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgINEAAYgAQYigUYQxiwA8ICCBAAGAgYBxgewgIGEAAYHhgNwgIIEAAYBRgeGA3CAggQABgIGB4YCsICCBAAGAgYHhgNwgIGEAAYCBgewgIGEAAYFhgewgILEAAYgAQYigUYhgPCAgcQIRgKGKABwgIFECEYnwWYAwDiAwUSATEgQIgGAZAGCZIHBDQuMTmgB4hzsgcEMy4xObgHgBbCBwgwLjEuMTkuM8gHeYAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">3-D slice</a>. The entire history of that dog is the rest of the 4-D worm that is the dog. Thus, no spacetime worm, or person, is ever &#8220;wholly present&#8221;<strong> </strong>at any given time. He, she, or it <em>perdure</em>.</p><p>There is a possible contradiction here.</p><p>If the Time<strong> </strong>Traveller had a beer belly, and later didn&#8217;t have a beer belly, then how do we &#8220;see&#8221; the entire spacetime worm? Well, again, we don&#8217;t literally<em> see</em> him at all. Instead, the Time Traveller had a beer belly during a certain<strong> </strong>&#8220;temporal slice&#8221;, and he didn&#8217;t have a beer belly at a later temporal slice. Thus, no &#8220;contradiction&#8221;. That is, the Time Traveller doesn&#8217;t possess contradictory properties at one and the same time.</p><p>This is the position of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Perdurantism&amp;sca_esv=9372fb16b545f228&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnta_y3zGGYaQwPiRggdlgG_FIme1A%3A1784192450995&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=wp1Yaqm4OouT9u8PhKT8iA8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAalir0ouvklODUcRq7wqxICoS3zgJzQl8&amp;ved=0ahUKEwipoYDq6taVAxWLif0HHQQSH_EQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Perdurantism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxQZXJkdXJhbnRpc20yBBAjGCcyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIGEAAYBRgeSNEHUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXigAXiqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAokBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfNBbIHAzAuMbgHiQHCBwMzLTHIBwyACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Perdurantism</a>. A spacetime worm is a persisting object that is the sum<strong> </strong>of all its/his/her temporal slices.</p><div><hr></div><h4>Note:</h4><p>(1) The Time Traveller &#8220;lands&#8221; in 802,701. That may seem oddly specific. Apparently, there were evolutionary reasons for H. G. Wells choosing that date. To be honest, &#8220;evolutionary science&#8221; is more important to <em>The Time Machine</em> than my own concentration on geometry and spacetime worms.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Physicalism is Flawed… and So Is Every Other Philosophical Framework]]></title><description><![CDATA[Do you know that physicalism is flawed? Do you also know that most of physicalism's main rivals are flawed to a much greater degree?]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/physicalism-is-flawed-and-so-is-every</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/physicalism-is-flawed-and-so-is-every</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2026 10:55:20 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!zmm3!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbc8e4834-991c-4772-8778-2623883dd4ee_1250x577.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" 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Source <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/193304911@N06/55200612716/in/album-72177720311036675">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p>It&#8217;s easy to come across a fair amount of stories on <em>Medium</em> with titles like the following: &#8216;The flaw of physicalism is explaining consciousness&#8217;, &#8216;Scientists Have Finally Disproved Materialism!&#8217;, &#8216;Why Materialism Can&#8217;t Explain Consciousness&#8217;, &#8216;The Hard Problem Refutes Physicalism&#8217;, and the very<strong> </strong>latest one (posted in the last week) with the word &#8216;materialism&#8217; in the title,<strong> </strong>&#8216;Materialism&#8217;s Fatal Flaw: The Consciousness Problem Science Was Never Built to Solve&#8217;.</p><p>Importantly, it&#8217;s often the case that physicalism is treated as the default framework (or &#8220;worldview&#8221;) of science<strong>.</strong> (Bernardo Kastrup, Rupert Sheldrake, etc. believe this.) This can be debated. But if physicalism is seen that way, then <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=anti-materialists&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntof_KBUQVTBQ8KpF2QlquRGcKRdw%3A1784696686129&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=bk9gaqjvBLS_hbIPofjpgQQ&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBdfuhc8xUAynL_1lDpUjlBi4w6qNur&amp;ved=0ahUKEwio3oWgweWVAxW0X0EAHSF8OkAQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=anti-materialists&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhFhbnRpLW1hdGVyaWFsaXN0czIEECMYJzIEEAAYHjILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVI5whQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBSKABSKoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAlWYAwCSBwExoAf5A7IHATG4B1XCBwMzLTHIBwmACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anti-materialists</a> are almost bound to see themselves as challenging that supposed &#8220;hegemony&#8221;.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>In terms of philosophers. No philosopher ever adopted physicalism because he thought it was complete or the total truth. Most physicalists embraced physicalism because its alternatives created even greater difficulties.</p><p>If problems or flaws in a philosophical framework are acknowledged, does that automatically mean that the framework should be completely rejected? Does that mean that an alternative framework&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;which one?&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;should automatically be accepted?</p><p>Do all, many, some, or any alternatives (or rivals) actually fare better?</p><h3>The Argument Against Physicalism</h3><p>There are a<strong> </strong>hell of a lot of versions of <em>the</em> argument against physicalism. In condensed form, they amount to the following:</p><blockquote><p>There is a problem with physicalism.</p><p>Therefore, people should be against physicalism.</p></blockquote><p>Here&#8217;s another form:</p><blockquote><p>Physicalism cannot currently explain X.</p><p>Therefore, physicalism is false.</p></blockquote><p>Again:</p><blockquote><p>Physicalism has a problem explaining X.</p><p>Therefore physicalism is untenable.</p></blockquote><p>But what if we don&#8217;t, as yet, understand any given <em>X</em>? What if physicalism simply needs to be revised?</p><p>Finally:</p><blockquote><p>Physicalists can&#8217;t explain consciousness.</p><p>Therefore physicalism is dead.</p></blockquote><p>Okay. Which physicalists is this referring to? Which kind of physicalism is it referring to? What have physicalists said in response to claims like this? Does idealism,<strong> </strong>theism, panpsychism, etc. explain consciousness in a better way?</p><p>Yet I&#8217;ve often come across the argument (or statement) that despite the differences between physicalists and their positions, they basically adopt the same position. They don&#8217;t. They just don&#8217;t adopt theistic or idealist positions.</p><h3>Consciousness: Alternatives to Physicalism</h3><p>Consciousness may well be a spanner in the works for physicalism. But how do dualism, idealism, panpsychism, theism, etc. fare on this?</p><p>Isn&#8217;t all the above to assume that the alternative or rival frameworks aren&#8217;t flawed? All the rivals to materialism and physicalism have been subject to countless criticisms for hundreds of years&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;even millennia. In fact, materialism, and then physicalism, arose because of the flaws in many of these alternatives:</p><ol><li><p>Dualism<strong> </strong>needs to explain how non-physical minds interact with physical brains.</p></li><li><p>Idealism needs to explain the stability of the physical world, as well as our intersubjective agreement about it. (This is something <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22objective+idealism%22&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntkz0zZRg0YJBJ5N-8hY9CeY0NtKQ%3A1784696894660&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=PlBgaouPJtyvkdUP_qH1mAg&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBeTqOw4y-zTkZmwOVT6sAUtGmzIThV&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiLpr6DwuWVAxXcV6QEHf5QHYMQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22objective+idealism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASIUIm9iamVjdGl2ZSBpZGVhbGlzbSIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyCRAAGBYYHhiLAzIJEAAYFhgeGIsDMgkQABgWGB4YiwMyCRAAGBYYHhiLAzIJEAAYFhgeGIsDMgkQABgWGB4YiwMyCRAAGBYYHhiLA0jHClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFzoAFzqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJ9mAMAkgcDMC4xoAfsBbIHAzAuMbgHfcIHAzMtMcgHCIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">objective idealism</a><strong> </strong>was<strong> </strong>meant to deal with.)</p></li><li><p>Panpsychism needs to explain how countless micro-experiences combine to make a unified consciousness (the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=combination+problem+panpsychism&amp;sca_esv=2a19c6b8f1ef7130&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsWH8_vNyr0BRhnoGQ60wcm8NV8_g%3A1784698026361&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=qlRgar3OE6mvhbIPiaK9yQM&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBiuuazwzyEDjjBJKKn7cr0qrZcNFQL&amp;oq=combination+problem&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhNjb21iaW5hdGlvbiBwcm9ibGVtKgIIADILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAY7wVI0TVQAFjtIHAAeACQAQCYAVKgAbUCqgEBNbgBAcgBAPgBAvgBAZgCBaAC1QLCAgYQABgWGB7CAgYQABgHGB6YAwCSBwE1oAeLILIHATW4B9UCwgcDMi01yAcXgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">combination problem</a>).</p></li><li><p>Philosophical theism needs<strong> </strong>to explain why God (or &#8220;the divine mind&#8221;) gave rise to a world with the particular regularities, evolutionary history, and massive suffering it has.</p></li><li><p>Supernaturalism needs to explain its lack of predictive success when compared with science.</p></li></ol><p>Here are four more common questions:</p><ul><li><p>Why does consciousness exhibit the specific structure it does?</p></li><li><p>Why do specific brain injuries alter conscious experience in specific ways?</p></li><li><p>Why does consciousness appear so tightly correlated with brains and nervous systems?</p></li><li><p>Why did consciousness evolve gradually if it is &#8220;fundamental&#8221;?</p></li></ul><p>Yet today there seems to be a fashion for idealist or religious/spiritual views on consciousness. That certainly seems to be the case here on <em>Medium</em>. Let me put it this way. I haven&#8217;t read a single defence of physicalism on <em>Medium</em>. However, there are attacks on physicalism and materialism almost every single day. Moreover, virtually all the critics are coming at this from a religious or &#8220;spiritual&#8221; angle.</p><h3>Physicalists Who&#8217;ve Been Critical of Physicalism</h3><p>For over seven years here on <em>Medium</em>, I&#8217;ve noted that most &#8220;anti-materialists&#8221; don&#8217;t quote materialists or physicalists. Yet, oddly enough, the best critics of physicalism are physicalists.</p><p>Take just two examples.</p><ul><li><p>The American philosopher<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Hilary+Putnam&amp;sca_esv=a75f3b595b8525f4&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvc0Zv3abg3ZeHsZE9ZDebMjuq8Fg%3A1784636096441&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=wGJfaqOmGOKK9u8P-teC2Qs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAal9w0DAKtL5eE60nGnE9xbwWUB9lyhky&amp;ved=0ahUKEwijhtHE3-OVAxVihf0HHfqrILsQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Hilary+Putnam&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1IaWxhcnkgUHV0bmFtMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEiPB1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGzAaABswGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAr8BmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeDDLIHAzAuMbgHvwHCBwMzLTHIBwqACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Hilary Putnam</a> criticized the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=identity+theory&amp;sca_esv=2a19c6b8f1ef7130&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntxEdiT_sjBump5mzb27o0omTLrIA%3A1784697195529&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=a1FgatCVHu2ikdUPipar2Ao&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBfe4cX6prIIvLwYkqB6mggf4FyMik_&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiQ9_mSw-WVAxVtUaQEHQrLCqsQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=identity+theory&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9pZGVudGl0eSB0aGVvcnkyBBAjGCcyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjIKEAAYgAQYigUYQzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEiuCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFeoAFeqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACaZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHogiyBwMwLjG4B2nCBwMyLTHIBweACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">identity theory</a>. Yet he remained a naturalist.</p></li><li><p><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Jerry+Fodor&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnt7VKnnTlwJWNH5plqdjMUBLhtqxg%3A1784697158693&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=RlFgapyJKPP5kdUPiJymgA8&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBfVkVzy381YvIhNuWez84QoclsuJ8K&amp;ved=0ahUKEwicxLGBw-WVAxXzfKQEHQiOCfAQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Jerry+Fodor&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtKZXJyeSBGb2RvcjILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkj7CFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFioAFiqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACa5gDAJIHAzAuMaAHwAuyBwMwLjG4B2vCBwMyLTHIBweACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Jerry Fodor</a> offered well-known arguments against <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=reductive+physicalism&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnveYu3EpFuEHEVpaRdgQke4KJkpwg%3A1784697053084&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=3VBgavHnApyHkdUPxqzysQc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBe7SZaptHvyt-JMEnvE1GiRpz-s2Yc&amp;ved=0ahUKEwixyoPPwuWVAxWcQ6QEHUaWPHYQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=reductive+physicalism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVyZWR1Y3RpdmUgcGh5c2ljYWxpc20yCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSKUIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAV2gAV2qAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJrmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeWB7IHAzAuMbgHa8IHAzMtMcgHC4AIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">reductive physicalism</a> by emphasising the &#8220;special sciences&#8221; and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=multiple+realizability&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsRMTL2X0RcaHbJUZUzczP0edwJeQ%3A1784697103486&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=D1FgarOnG5Xp7M8Po4bfyAc&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBfH-MX4-PH3nTOTFQQKaYry579NJF2&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjz6ofnwuWVAxWVNPsDHSPDF3kQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=multiple+realizability&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhZtdWx0aXBsZSByZWFsaXphYmlsaXR5MgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSIsPUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVigAViqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJkmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeJBrIHAzAuMbgHZMIHAzMtMcgHCIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">multiple realizability</a>.</p></li></ul><p>Now take<strong> </strong>the many articles in the vicinity of &#8216;Physicalism cannot explain consciousness&#8217; which don&#8217;t mention <em>any</em> contemporary physicalist responses whatsoever. You&#8217;d expect a serious discussion to ask some of the following questions:</p><ol><li><p>What about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=emergentist+physicalism&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQntIwc3iwylgCT-C9WeoSCfZdhSnVA%3A1784697306530&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=2lFgao-JHoW_nsEPtZqWqAk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBf6oiHDP_XfNDnDgax0NfMdXeplkyf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiP3vDHw-WVAxWFnycCHTWNBZUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=emergentist+physicalism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhdlbWVyZ2VudGlzdCBwaHlzaWNhbGlzbTIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVIuAhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBYqABYqoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmuYAwCSBwMwLjGgB-4EsgcDMC4xuAdrwgcDMi0xyAcFgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">emergentist physicalism</a>?</p></li><li><p>What would Paul Churchland say?</p></li><li><p>How would Dennett respond to the criticisms of his views and of physicalism?</p></li><li><p>What about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Michael+Graziano&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnulwKvekFi57Jgwfo-PdnkZWSqsJA%3A1784697251517&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=o1FgauitHb6kkdUP1eyp8A0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBfs-c3TvTC0ofDZYBGr3LalzCyPY6Q&amp;ved=0ahUKEwioi9Otw-WVAxU-UqQEHVV2Ct4Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Michael+Graziano&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASIQTWljaGFlbCBHcmF6aWFubzIEECMYJzIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgoQABiABBgUGIcCMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyCBAAGIAEGIsDMggQABiABBiLAzIIEAAYgAQYiwMyCBAAGIAEGIsDSMwJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVigAViqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJkmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeqCLIHAzAuMbgHZMIHAzMtMcgHCIAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Michael Graziano</a>&#8217;s <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=attention+schema+theory&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnv0thk3Syul-3RRL6ivgZlt2qmJFw%3A1784697342064&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=_lFgaoHhAcKgkdUPoIOWqAg&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBgDonyOkDOt9hsOniQMfJX3rsvIU1d&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiB2OnYw-WVAxVCUKQEHaCBBYUQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=attention+schema+theory&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYASIXYXR0ZW50aW9uIHNjaGVtYSB0aGVvcnkyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgoQABiABBiKBRhDMggQABiABBiLAzIIEAAYgAQYiwMyCRAAGBYYHhiLAzIJEAAYFhgeGIsDMgkQABgWGB4YiwMyCRAAGBYYHhiLAzIJEAAYFhgeGIsDMgkQABgWGB4YiwNI6QhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBYaABYaoBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAm6YAwCSBwMwLjGgB6EGsgcDMC4xuAduwgcDMy0xyAcMgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">attention schema theory</a>?</p></li><li><p>What about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=eliminative+materialism&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnsn4S_duP0eOsPCPk3BNmktOPjnGg%3A1784697451139&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=a1JgasSEBsyYkdUPp5W12Q0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBge6JwczFMza8QkROrGyrk-zgBorcB&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiE5uqMxOWVAxVMTKQEHadKLdsQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=eliminative+materialism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhdlbGltaW5hdGl2ZSBtYXRlcmlhbGlzbTIEECMYJzIEECMYJzILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAESIMIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAVOgAVOqAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJemAMAkgcBMaAHpAmyBwExuAdewgcDMy0xyAcIgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">eliminative materialism</a> or <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=illusionism&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvgYhuGZR9XnP3TJ5huFFOccMKXqQ%3A1784697406863&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=PlJgaqvOMvaRkdUPx9S2-Qs&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBgTjEMsgGmnYENzE5EZfuxPmxYyPnY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwir5dz3w-WVAxX2SKQEHUeqLb8Q4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=illusionism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgtpbGx1c2lvbmlzbTILEC4YgAQYigUYkQIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIhghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBW6ABW6oBATG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAmaYAwCSBwMwLjGgB8oHsgcDMC4xuAdmwgcDMy0xyAcJgAgB&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">illusionism</a>?</p></li><li><p>What about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Russellian+physicalism&amp;sca_esv=8c156a4c6e9e56df&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnvBmg244jmzb-7BOpKJL0KJYtMCqg%3A1784708230291&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=hnxgaqSXD5XAhbIPlMW24Qk&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamCKlnkz7CX6xZ1hsk6Kt7i40jLT99qy&amp;ved=0ahUKEwik8t2g7OWVAxUVYEEAHZSiLZwQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Russellian+physicalism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhZSdXNzZWxsaWFuIHBoeXNpY2FsaXNtMgUQABiABDILEAAYgAQYigUYhgMyCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDMgsQABiABBiKBRiGAzIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMgUQABjvBUjJGFDND1jND3ABeACQAQCYAYEBoAGBAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAqACnAGoAgrCAgcQIxjqAhgnwgINECMY8AUYngYY6gIYJ5gDFvEFEn6RxblewFmSBwMxLjGgB5wEsgcDMC4xuAeGAcIHBzItMS4wLjHIBxeACAE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Russellian physicalism</a>?</p></li></ol><p>Here again we come to the idea that just as most anti-materialists say that the difference between materialism and physicalism is a <em>difference that doesn&#8217;t make a difference</em>, so they also believe there&#8217;s no need to tackle what Churchland, Graziano, etc. say. Again, that&#8217;s primarily because these philosophers haven&#8217;t taken the plunge of becoming idealists, theists, etc.</p><h3>Are There Any Flawless Frameworks?</h3><p>A philosophical framework doesn&#8217;t have to be flawless in order to make progress. For example, logical positivism had many flaws, yet it also made genuine advances:</p><blockquote><p><strong>(i)</strong> It clarified the logic of scientific explanation.</p><p><strong>(ii)</strong> It raised standards of argumentative and conceptual precision.</p><p><strong>(iii)</strong> It exposed many ambiguities in traditional metaphysics.</p><p><strong>(iv)</strong> It helped establish philosophy of science as a rigorous discipline.</p></blockquote><p>One can acknowledge all of that while also accepting, say, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=W.V.O.+Quine&amp;sca_esv=80b912a141c1a717&amp;sxsrf=APpeQnuRXqMVGve7-Pde8gYelizgoknjYg%3A1784698108604&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=_FRgauW1Ir-gkdUP5PyCiQ0&amp;iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamBjDArVzzuGeqo4Z6D3cg9K0CAx06eb&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjlo6vGxuWVAxU_UKQEHWS-INEQ4dUDCCk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=W.V.O.+Quine&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxXLlYuTy4gUXVpbmUyCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECMgsQLhiABBiKBRiRAjIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FSO4HUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAV-gAV-qAQExuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAJnmAMAkgcDMC4xoAe8CbIHAzAuMbgHZ8IHAzItMcgHBoAIAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">W. V. O. Quine</a>&#8217;s criticisms of logical positivism. In fact, Quine is again a good illustration of all this. He embraced a &#8220;non-strict&#8221; physicalism while believing that parts of logical positivism were indeed untenable.</p><p><em>Progress</em> was mentioned a moment ago.</p><p>There&#8217;s a terrible conflation between progress and perfection. In simple terms, physicalism is deemed to be imperfect. Thus, the conclusion is that it has nothing to offer. Anti-materialists, however, don&#8217;t usually mention <em>progress</em>. So the fact that the scientists and philosophers who&#8217;ve adopted a physicalist framework have made progress isn&#8217;t even considered by them.</p><p>Physicalism may well be flawed, yet it has stimulated large amounts of productive work in neuroscience, cognitive science, philosophy of mind, theories of perception and artificial intelligence. In this sense, physicalism has been a very fruitful research programme regardless of its &#8220;ultimate truth&#8221;.</p><p>This attitude doesn&#8217;t surprise physicists and many other scientists. Physicists rarely ask: &#8220;Is this theory perfect?&#8221;<em> </em>Instead,<em> </em>they ask: &#8220;Is it leading to new discoveries, superior explanations, more fruitful research?&#8221;</p><p>One could ask an analogous question about philosophical frameworks:</p><blockquote><p><em><strong>Does this framework continue to illuminate new problems and generate better arguments?</strong></em></p></blockquote><p>A philosophical position deserves to be taken seriously not because it has zero flaws, but because it continues to make progress despite its flaws.</p><p>Finally, many philosophers think in terms of working within a philosophical framework, rather than thoroughly (or even mindlessly) embracing it.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[There are No Such Things as Knowledge and Truth]]></title><description><![CDATA[1) Introduction]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/there-are-no-such-things-as-knowledge</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/there-are-no-such-things-as-knowledge</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2026 06:19:16 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 1272w, 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/__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Z_XD!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff1779e97-df7c-4149-b83e-c2041c99f46c_1200x628.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p><strong>1) Introduction<br>2) Heat and Knowledge/Truth)<br>3) What is Epistemological Realism?<br>4) Epistemology and Knowledge<br>5) Truth<br>6) Conclusion: Michael Williams vs. Epistemological Realists</strong></p><div><hr></div><p></p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>Despite the provocative title of this piece, the British philosopher <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Williams_%28philosopher%29">Michael Williams</a> (1947-) does accept <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22We+can+have+an+account+of+the+use+and+utility+of+%27know%27+without+supposing+that+there+is+such+a+thing+as+human+knowledge%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[w]e can have an account of the use and utility of <em>[the word]</em> &#8216;know&#8217; without supposing that there is such a thing as human knowledge&#8221;.</p></div><p>Williams also makes similar claims about truth.</p><p>Yet the quote above still seems very radical or even <em>extreme</em>. If we shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;suppos[e] that there is such a thing as human knowledge&#8221;, then that must mean that Williams believes that <em>there is no such thing as human knowledge</em>. That said, Williams (again) happily <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22A+deflationary+account+of+%27know%27+may+show+how+the+word+is+embedded+in+a+teachable+and+useful+linguistic+practice%22.&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">concedes that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[a] deflationary account of &#8216;know&#8217; may show how the word is embedded in a teachable and useful linguistic practice&#8221;.</p></div><p>So will that be enough for philosophers and laypersons?</p><p>Well, as we shall see, it&#8217;s certainly not enough for what Williams calls the <em>epistemological realist.</em></p><h3>Heat and Knowledge/Truth</h3><p>Michael Williams compares the philosophical study of truth/knowledge with the study of heat in physics. <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Naively,+we+might+be+inclined+to+suppose+that+just+as+in+physics+we+study+the+nature+of+heat,+so+in+philosophy+we+study+the+nature+of+truth.+But+once+plausible+deflationary+views+are+on+the+table,+the+analogy+between+truth+and+things+like+heat+can+no+longer+be+treated+as+unproblematic%E2%80%A6%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">He writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Naively, we might be inclined to suppose that just as in physics we study the nature of heat, so in philosophy we study the nature of truth. But once plausible deflationary views are on the table, the analogy between truth and things like heat can no longer be treated as unproblematic.&#8221;</p></div><p>It must follow that since (many) philosophers <em>do</em> believe that they&#8217;re attempting to &#8220;study the nature of truth&#8221; or <em>the nature of knowledge</em>, then that must mean that there is <em>something</em> to be discovered. What&#8217;s more, that <em>something</em> must be (or be seen to be) determinate and fixed. Like heat, then, that <em>something</em> must have a given <em>nature</em>.</p><p>Yet even if we do have an unquestioning position on truth and knowledge, we still can&#8217;t see such things as being anything like heat&#8230; or water, trees, animals, etc. Thus, in this provisional sense at least, studying the nature of truth and knowledge is very unlike studying the nature of heat. And from that fact, many other things follow.</p><p>So why assume that truth and knowledge have determinate and fixed <em>natures</em>?</p><p>Surely for that to be the case, almost everyone would agree on what truth and knowledge are (as most people do on, say, what water is). But that&#8217;s never been the case&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and not just when it comes to philosophers.</p><h3>What is Epistemological Realism?</h3><p>Michael Williams emphasises an important terminological distinction. He states that epistemological realism</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;is not a position within epistemology <em>[it is a]</em> realism about the objects of epistemological inquiry&#8221;.</p></div><p>In other words, this is realism <em>about</em> epistemology, not realism <em>within</em> epistemology.</p><p>This essentially means that although a philosopher may be, say, an anti-realist <em>within</em> epistemology, he may also be a realist towards (or <em>about</em>)<em> </em>epistemology itself. More precisely, he may be anti-realist in that he thinks that we can&#8217;t acquire knowledge of an objective, mind-independent reality. However, he may still believe that there are &#8220;underlying epistemological structure or principles&#8221; common to all epistemological methods. Moreover, the epistemological realist</p><div class="pullquote"><p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22thinks+of+knowledge+in+very+much+the+way+the+scientific+realist+thinks+of+heat:+beneath+the+surface+diversity+there+is+structural+unity%22&amp;pg=PA108&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;thinks of knowledge in very much the way the scientific realist thinks of heat: beneath the surface diversity there is structural unity&#8221;</a>.</p></div><p>This leads the realist to believe that not &#8220;everything we call knowledge need be knowledge properly so called&#8221;. This means that he believes that his job is to generalise and extrapolate too: i.e., to bring &#8220;together the genuine cases into a coherent theoretical kind&#8221;. Thus, the right kind of, say, <em>justification</em> effectively becomes a <em>natural kind</em>. And so on. And when we bundle all these epistemic things together, then knowledge<em> </em>as a whole becomes a <em>natural kind</em>.</p><p>So what if the world of knowledge and epistemology isn&#8217;t like that?</p><p>Michael Williams also refers to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nagel">Thomas Nagel</a>&#8217;s <em>realist</em> view of epistemology.</p><p>According to Williams, Nagel&#8217;s phrase &#8220;our knowledge of the world&#8221; contains various presuppositions. That&#8217;s because it assumes that there is a &#8220;genuine totality&#8221; to have <em>knowledge about</em>. Nagel&#8217;s phrase also <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22there+are+invariant+epistemological+constraints+underlying+the+shifting+standards+of+everyday+justification%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">assumes that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;there are invariant epistemological constraints underlying the shifting standards of everyday justification&#8221;.</p></div><p>Thus, it can be said that Nagel sees the universal and general rather than the <a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-015-8336-7_3">Wittgensteinian particular</a>.</p><p>Williams cites the specific example of (among many) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Van_Orman_Quine">W.V.0. Quine</a>&#8217;s own <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic%E2%80%93synthetic_distinction#Quine%27s_criticisms">criticisms</a> of the<strong> </strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic%E2%80%93synthetic_distinction">analytic-synthetic distinction</a>. Here again, many epistemologists have attempted to generalise and perhaps create two natural kinds&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;<em>the analytic</em> and <em>the synthetic</em>. Yet what if there isn&#8217;t a &#8220;fixed, objective division between a theory&#8217;s meaning postulates and its empirical assumptions&#8221;?</p><h3>Epistemology and Knowledge</h3><p>Michael Williams<strong> </strong>also makes a distinction between</p><blockquote><p><strong>1) theories of knowledge</strong></p></blockquote><p>and</p><blockquote><p><strong>2) theories of the concept of knowledge</strong></p></blockquote><p>This is a distinction he (more or less) makes about <em>truth </em>too.</p><p>2) above can be said to be about the word &#8220;knowledge&#8221; and how it&#8217;s used. In addition, it&#8217;s also about the concept/s (or meaning/s) &#8220;behind&#8221; the word &#8220;knowledge&#8221;.</p><p>A <em>theory of knowledge</em>, on the other hand, is about the <em>thing</em> (or <em>property</em>) which is <em>knowledge</em>. This presupposes that there is something above and beyond our words, concepts, practices, usages, methods, etc.</p><p>Williams&#8217;s position is primarily aimed at what he calls <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemological_realism">&#8220;epistemological realism&#8221;</a>.</p><p>The epistemological realist believes that there&#8217;s a single correct view of justification, a single kind of truth, a single correct method, and so on.</p><p>As stated at the beginning, Williams thinks that epistemological realism is very much like scientific realism.</p><p>Take the analysis and classification of heat again. When the physicist or chemist explores the nature of heat, he <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22some+underlying+property,+or+structure+of+more+elementary+components,+common+to+hot+things%22&amp;pg=PA108&amp;printsec=frontcover">looks for</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;some underlying property, or structure of more elementary components, common to <em>[all]</em> hot things&#8221;.</p></div><p>Scientific realists (though not necessarily scientists themselves) therefore see heat as a <em>natural kind</em>. In other words, for <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Epistemology/-zeZDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22deep+structural+features+of+the+elementary+components+of+things+determine+the+boundaries+of+natural,+as+opposed+to+merely+nominal+or+conventional,+kinds%22&amp;pg=PA58&amp;printsec=frontcover">the scientific realist</a>,</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;deep structural features of the elementary components of things determine the boundaries of natural, as opposed to merely nominal or conventional, kinds&#8221;.</p></div><p>The epistemological realist attempts to do the same kind of thing with <em>knowledge</em> and with the methods and means he uses to acquire knowledge too. Thus, he believes that &#8220;there must be underlying epistemological structures or principles&#8221;.</p><p>Take the specific case of <em>justified true belief</em>.</p><p>For a long time many epistemologists argued that knowledge is <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem#Knowledge_as_justified_true_belief_%28JTB%29">justified true belief</a> </em>(even if they still had problems describing and/or explaining <em>justification</em> and <em>belief </em>when taken separately). Then along came <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Gettier">Edmund Gettier</a>&#8217;s demonstration that this analysis of knowledge (to use Williams&#8217;s words)<strong> </strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22fails+to+state+a+sufficient+condition+for+knowledge%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;fails to state a sufficient condition</a><strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22fails+to+state+a+sufficient+condition+for+knowledge%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover"> </a></strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22fails+to+state+a+sufficient+condition+for+knowledge%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover">for knowledge&#8221;</a>.</p><p>So is that partly&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even largely&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;because <em>knowledge</em> is not a <em>thing</em> (or <em>property</em>) that can even have a correct analysis in all situations? (This, as Williams argues, isn&#8217;t also to argue that <em>there is no such the thing</em> as knowledge.)</p><p>Again, Williams makes a connection with analysis in science. <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22%E2%80%A6we+might+be+inclined+to+suppose+that+just+as+in+physics+we+study+the+nature+of+heat,+so+in+philosophy+we+study+the+nature+of+truth.+But+once+plausible+deflationary+views+are+on+the+table,+the+analogy+between+truth+%5Bknowledge%5D+and+things+like+heat+can+no+longer+be+treated+as+unproblematic.%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">He writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;<em>[W]</em>e might be inclined to suppose that just as in physics we study the nature of heat, so in philosophy we study the nature of truth. But once plausible deflationary views are on the table, the analogy between truth <em>[knowledge]</em> and things like heat can no longer be treated as unproblematic.&#8221;</p></div><p>Essentially, then, epistemological realists&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and many others&#8202;&#8212;<em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_%28fallacy%29#:~:text=Reification%20%28also%20known%20as%20concretism,real%20event%20or%20physical%20entity.">&#8202;reify</a></em><strong> </strong>truth and knowledge. They turn truth and knowledge into two&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;perhaps abstract&#8212; <em>things</em> or <em>properties</em>.</p><p>Now let&#8217;s concentrate on truth</p><h3>Truth</h3><p>Many people do agree on what they <em>take to be true. </em>However, they don&#8217;t necessarily agree on <em>why</em> their claims are true or on what constitutes their truth too. This means that taking the claim, say, &#8220;Water is wet&#8221; or &#8220;Killing people for fun is wrong&#8221; as true is fairly unproblematic. What is problematic is <em>why</em> this statement is true or what <em>constitutes</em> its truth. So it&#8217;s not the taking of any given <em>p</em> as being true that&#8217;s being discussed here. Countless people take the statement &#8220;Cats are animals&#8221; or &#8220;Killing for fun is wrong&#8221; to be true. </p><p>Similar points holds for knowledge too.</p><p>More specifically in terms of Williams&#8217;s own position. Just as Williams detects <em>realist</em> views about epistemology, so he detects realist positions when it comes to truth too.</p><p>Put at its simplest: the problem is that many people take truth to be a <em>thing&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;</em>even if an <em>abstract thin</em>g. Yet truth may not be a <em>thing</em> or <em>property</em> at all. And if that&#8217;s the case, then perhaps we can never discover its <em>nature</em>.</p><p>As a result of all this, Williams doesn&#8217;t believe that truth is a &#8220;theoretically significant property&#8221;. (Perhaps he doesn&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a <em>property</em> at all.) Thus, he cites the case of the <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflationary_theory_of_truth">deflationary theory of truth</a></em>.</p><p>To Williams, true sentences are &#8220;merely a nominal kind&#8221;. That is, all true statements don&#8217;t share the same <em>something -</em> viz., the same entity (or same property) <em>truth</em>.</p><p>Williams also argues that <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22there+are+endlessly+many+truths,+there+is+no+such+thing+as+truth%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;there are endlessly many truths,</a><strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22there+are+endlessly+many+truths,+there+is+no+such+thing+as+truth%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover"> </a></strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22there+are+endlessly+many+truths,+there+is+no+such+thing+as+truth%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover">[but] there is no such thing as truth&#8221;</a>. (Perhaps we should write &#8220;Truth&#8221; here instead.)</p><p>Realists about truth, on the other hand, believe that truth is a single property&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even a single <em>thing</em>. Therefore, like heat or a cat, it can be <em>analysed </em>and<em> correctly described</em>. Such realists believe that truth is an &#8220;important property shared by all true sentences&#8221;. That said, the realist needn&#8217;t be obliged to state exactly what truth is. He may, instead, offer any one of Williams&#8217;s <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22or+goodness+in+the+way+of+belief%22&amp;pg=PA112&amp;printsec=frontcover">following possibilities</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;<em>[C]</em>orrespondence to fact, incorporability in some ideally coherent system of judgements, or goodness in the way of belief.&#8221;</p></div><p>It must follow that if one of these accounts is the<strong> </strong><em>true</em> way of describing <em>truth</em>, then all true statements will, say, be <em>incorporable into an ideally coherent system, be correspondent with facts, </em>etc.</p><p>The truth realist wants something very substantial. He wants something shared by <em>all</em> true statements. This means that he isn&#8217;t interested in the &#8220;use of a word&#8221; or the &#8220;point of the concept&#8221;. The realist, instead, <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Epistemology/-zeZDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22there+is+more+to+understanding+truth+than+appreciating+the+utility+of+the+truth-predicate%22&amp;pg=PA60&amp;printsec=frontcover">believes that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;there is more to understanding truth than appreciating the utility of the truth-predicate&#8221;.</p></div><h3>Conclusion: Michael Williams vs Realism</h3><p>Towards the end of his paper, Michael Williams lets an <em>epistemological realist</em> speak for himself. He quotes<strong> </strong><a href="https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/_files/inmemoriam/html/ThompsonClarke.html">Thompson Clarke</a> (1928&#8211;2012)<strong> </strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=Each+concept+or+the+conceptual+scheme+must+be+divorceable+intact+from+our+practices,+from+whatever+constitutes+the+essential+character+of+the+plain%E2%80%A6ascertain,+when+possible,+whether+items+fulfil+the+conditions+legislated+by+concepts.&amp;pg=PA197&amp;printsec=frontcover">thus</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;&#8216;Each concept or the conceptual scheme must be divorceable intact from our practices, from whatever constitutes the essential character of the plain&#8230;<em>[we]</em> ascertain, when possible, whether items fulfil the conditions legislated by concepts.&#8217;&#8221;</p></div><p>The above is as strong a statement of metaphysical and epistemological realism as one can imagine. Williams would also no doubt argue that it&#8217;s an epistemologically realist position <em>toward</em> (i.e., not <em>within</em>) epistemology (which is of course the main theme of Williams&#8217;s paper).</p><p>Williams stresses the fact that concepts, conceptual schemes, epistemological methods, etc. are determined by the nature of our <em>practices</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;they have no reality apart from them. Thompson Clarke, on the other hand, argues that the aforementioned can be &#8220;[divorced] intact from our practices&#8221;. Thus, he must believe that there is a <em>right and a wrong</em> about all our concepts. That also means that correct concepts must match the world <em>as it is in itself</em>. Incorrect concepts, however, distort the world&#8217;s <em>nature</em>.</p><p>Yet Michael Williams himself still believes in the falsity or truth of our concepts. However, their truth or falsehood will be internally determined by our <em>practices</em>. Without practices, there is nothing.</p><p>Williams&#8217;s take is, therefore, a very Wittgensteinian&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;as well as a <a href="https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198722199.001.0001/acprof-9780198722199-chapter-2">deflationary</a>&#8202;&#8212;<strong>&#8202;</strong>position on knowledge and truth. He argues that a deflationary account of the word &#8220;know&#8221; may show <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22how+the+word+is+embedded+in+a+teachable+and+useful+linguistic+practice%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;how the word is embedded in a teachable and useful linguistic practice&#8221;</a>. (Surely this is a <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations#Meaning_is_use">meaning-is-use</a></em> definition of &#8220;know&#8221;.) In other words, Williams doesn&#8217;t suppose that <em>being known to be true</em> <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22denotes+a+property+that+groups+propositions+into+a+theoretically+significant+kind%22&amp;pg=PA113&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;denotes a property that groups propositions into a theoretically significant kind&#8221;</a>. Williams, nevertheless, still accepts that the word &#8220;know&#8221; (as well as the word &#8220;truth&#8221;?) does have utility value. (Perhaps we can say that <em>it works</em>!)</p><p>Finally, and in opposition to epistemological realism (at least of the kind Williams is talking about), we have Williams&#8217;s alternative of <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22various+practices+of+assessment,+perhaps+sharing+certain+formal+features%22&amp;pg=PA109&amp;printsec=frontcover">&#8220;various practices of assessment, perhaps sharing certain formal features&#8221;</a>. And that&#8217;s all we&#8217;ve got. Williams <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Unnatural_Doubts/l15LgIsToe8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22It+doesn%27t+follow+from+this+that+the+various+items+given+a+positive+rating+add+up+to+anything+like+a+natural+kind.%22&amp;pg=PA109&amp;printsec=frontcover">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;It doesn&#8217;t follow from this that the various items given a positive rating add up to anything like a natural kind.&#8221;</p></div><p>These <em>various practices of assessment</em> may not even be a &#8220;surveyable whole&#8221; or a &#8220;genuine totality rather than a more or less loose aggregate&#8221;.</p><p>Williams argues that it&#8217;s the topics or subjects we study (with our epistemological hats on) that determine our epistemological methods and&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;perhaps&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;our goals too. So it largely depends on the subject we&#8217;re studying. We can&#8217;t expect&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or desire&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that there&#8217;s &#8220;an order of reasons [that operate independently] of all circumstances and all collateral knowledge&#8221;. Moreover, every subject doesn&#8217;t have the same methodology which is applicable to it. Similarly, it&#8217;s certainly the case that not all the sciences use (to take just one blatant example) the hypothetico-deductive method.</p><h3>[I can be found on Twitter <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulAustinMurp2">here</a>.]</h3><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Donald Hoffman's Conscious Realism vs Panpsychism and Idealism]]></title><description><![CDATA[1) Introduction]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/donald-hoffmans-conscious-realism</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/donald-hoffmans-conscious-realism</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2026 11:11:01 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png" width="508" height="346" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:346,&quot;width&quot;:508,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!gU_7!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2de12ce6-4052-4f95-88a5-2c73ea8059e2_508x346.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p><strong>1) Introduction <br>2) Panpsychism? <br>3) Idealism and Anti-Realism <br>4) Kant&#8217;s Transcendental Idealism <br>5) The Copenhagen Interpretation</strong></p><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png" width="542" height="185" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:185,&quot;width&quot;:542,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!9gdn!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3dd7bc03-cd3b-422d-bf32-631298969f76_542x185.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"></picture><div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Donald Hoffman&#8217;s philosophical position is called <em>conscious realism</em>. He opposes that position to panpsychism and to Kant&#8217;s transcendental idealism.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>In terms of panpsychism: there are clear distinctions between Hoffman&#8217;s conscious realism and panpsychism. However, there are also very clear and strong similarities. (In one place, Hoffman <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&amp;v=B7KaNnFij2Q&amp;feature=emb_logo">does say</a> that he accepts what he sees as <em>one type</em> of<strong> </strong>panpsychism&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;the one that&#8217;s not, in his eyes, &#8220;dualist&#8221;.)</p><p>If we turn to Kant..</p><p>Hoffman is against Kant&#8217;s <em>transcendental idealism</em> for the primary reason that he doesn&#8217;t deem it to be scientific. Nonetheless, his arguments against Kant aren&#8217;t convincing. And he strongly distinguish his own position from transcendental idealism.</p><p>As for anti-realism.</p><p>Hoffman hardly mentions it. Nonetheless, he does mention the <em>Copenhagen interpretation </em>of quantum mechanics favourably. In fact he uses it (in various places) in order to defend his own position of <em>conscious realism</em>. The thing is that Hoffman makes the Copenhagen interpretation seem idealist in nature. That said, he&#8217;s hardly the first person to have done so (see <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/27743911?seq=1">here</a>).</p><p>And on the subject of idealism.</p><p>This piece argues that Hoffman&#8217;s conscious realism is a new-fangled take on idealism (i.e., it&#8217;s idealism with self-conscious mathematical and scientific knobs on). Hoffman will deny this, and he&#8217;ll do so for various reasons. Primarily, Hoffman will do so because he <em>does</em> indeed believe that there&#8217;s a &#8220;reality&#8221; out there. (In other words, Hoffman often uses the word &#8220;reality&#8221; positively&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;i.e., in that he claims that there is a <em>reality</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;many times; despite the fact that he&#8217;s just written a book called <em><a href="https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/295/295303/the-case-against-reality/9780241262627.html">The Case Against Reality</a></em>.) Nonetheless, Hoffman also argues that we haven&#8217;t got direct (or even indirect?) access to that reality. Instead, we&#8217;ve only got access to the contents of consciousness. And that&#8217;s still the case even if those contents belong to some kind of collective of consciousness<em>es</em> (i.e., that of a collective of what Hoffman calls &#8220;conscious agents&#8221;).</p><h3><strong>Panpsychism?</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Qx9p!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff5043da4-97ff-470d-a4ff-9ac24f067ce6_608x483.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Qx9p!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, 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/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Qx9p!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff5043da4-97ff-470d-a4ff-9ac24f067ce6_608x483.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Rupert Sheldrake and Donald Hoffman</strong></figcaption></figure></div><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Hoffman">Professor Donald Hoffman</a> is explicit about his position on <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism">panpsychism</a>. He <a href="http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ConsciousRealism2.pdf">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;Conscious realism is not panpsychism, nor does it entail panpsychism.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>It can now be said that even <em>if</em> Hoffman&#8217;s <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Hoffman#Conscious_Realism">conscious realism</a> (CR) isn&#8217;t identical to panpsychism&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and also that it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;entail panpsychism&#8221;, that still doesn&#8217;t mean that it has nothing in common with it at all. It may even be the case that Hoffman&#8217;s conscious realism has a lot in common with panpsychism.</p><p>Hoffman then makes various distinctions between his own position of conscious realism and panpsychism. <a href="http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ConsciousRealism2.pdf">He states</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Conscious realism, together with MUI [<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_D._Hoffman#Multimodal_user_interface_%28MUI%29_theory">multimodal user interface</a>] theory, claims that tables and chairs are icons in the MUIs of conscious agents, and thus that they are conscious experiences of those agents. It does not claim, nor entail, that tables and chairs are conscious or conscious agents.&#8221;</p></div><p>That last sentence (&#8220;[Conscious realism] does not claim, nor entail, that tables and chairs are conscious or conscious agents.&#8221; ) is of course directly and clearly aimed at panpsychism. That being said, not many (if any) panpsychists argue that tables and chairs are &#8220;conscious agents&#8221;. They simply argue that tables and chairs (or their many parts!) are conscious or that they <em>instantiate</em> (whatever that may mean) experience or &#8220;phenomenal properties&#8221;. (More of which in a moment.)</p><p>The rest of the Hoffman quote above makes some correct distinctions between panpsychism and conscious realism. For one, panpsychists most certainly <em>don&#8217;t</em> claim that &#8220;tables and chairs are icons in the MUIs of conscious agents&#8221;. And neither do they claim that tables and chairs are the &#8220;conscious experiences of [] agents&#8221;. More importantly (unlike conscious realism), panpsychists <em>do</em> claim that &#8220;tables and chairs [or their many parts] are conscious&#8221;; though they rarely (if ever) claim that they&#8217;re also &#8220;conscious agents&#8221;. (This raises the question: <em>What does Hoffman mean by &#8220;agent&#8221;?</em>)</p><p>There are different types of panpsychism, and not all panpsychists would be keen on using the precise words &#8220;tables and chairs are conscious&#8221;. Instead, some panpsychists would say that tables and chairs are made up of entities which contain (or instantiate) <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/2108035?seq=1">&#8220;phenomenal properties/qualities&#8221;</a><strong> </strong>(or <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FgPWBgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA264&amp;lpg=PA264&amp;dq=&#8220;proto-phenomenal+properties#v=onepage&amp;q=&#8220;proto-phenomenal%20properties">&#8220;(proto)phenomenal properties&#8221;</a>). This clearly isn&#8217;t as grand a claim as claiming that they tables and chairs are &#8220;conscious&#8221;. (I don&#8217;t use the term <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia">&#8220;qualia&#8221;</a> here because that will lead to unclarity.)<strong> </strong>And it&#8217;s certainly less grand that claiming that tables and chairs are <em>conscious agents</em>. However, one part of Hoffman&#8217;s story does seem to chime in with panpsychism. Take <a href="https://drdianehamilton.com/understanding-perception-spirituality-and-consciousness-with-donald-hoffman/">this passage</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;The story that there was first the Big Bang and then, billions of years of later, life, and then, hundreds of millions of years later, consciousness, is fundamentally wrong. It&#8217;s the other way around. Consciousness is fundamental.&#8221;</p></div><p>Most panpsychists would be very happy with Hoffman&#8217;s sentence above. Nonetheless, although they believe that &#8220;consciousness is fundamental&#8221;, panpsychists and Hoffman have very different takes on those three words. Put simply. Consciousness is fundamental to panpsychists in the sense that all things have various degrees of consciousness (or experience). To Hoffman, on the other hand, consciousness is <em>fundamental</em> in that the contents of an individual&#8217;s consciousness (or the contents of various collectives of &#8220;conscious agents&#8221;) is literally constitutive of reality or the whole of the universe (as well as everything in it).</p><p>Both panpsychists and conscious realists agree that consciousness (or experience) isn&#8217;t an<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_your_definition_of_emergent_properties"> &#8220;emergent property&#8221;</a> at all: it&#8217;s been around since the Big Bang. Thus, if consciousness has been with the universe since the Beginning, then the issue of the emergence of consciousness becomes a non-problem.</p><p>Panpsychists tend to think of consciousness (or phenomenal properties or experience) as being &#8220;fundamental&#8221; in the sense that it exists <em>all the way</em> <em>down and all the way up</em>. (All the way down to particles and all the way up to human beings.) Hoffman, on the other hand, stresses the fundamentality of consciousness by writing it into the story at the Big Bang (actually, just after). Having said that, these two emphasises work perfectly well together. That is:</p><blockquote><p><strong>i) If we have consciousness all the way down to particles,</strong></p><p><strong>ii) then that&#8217;s precisely because we had particles&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and therefore consciousness&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;(just after) the Big Bang.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Thus, these two positions fit perfectly well together.</p><p>To repeat. Hoffman&#8217;s position can be seen as a take on panpsychism in that he states that &#8220;consciousness is fundamental&#8221;. (Three words which many panpsychists often use together&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;see <a href="https://philosophynow.org/issues/121/The_Case_For_Panpsychism">here</a>.) Panpsychism also rejects the emergence of consciousness from the physical and stresses, instead, that it&#8217;s not the case that (to use Hoffman&#8217;s words) it&#8217;s &#8220;a latecomer in the evolutionary history of the universe&#8221; that &#8220;aris[es] from complex interactions of unconsciousness matter and fields&#8221;. Instead, panpsychists believe that there&#8217;s consciousness (or there are <em>phenomenal properties</em>) all the way down to the particle and all the way up to the animal brain. Thus, there&#8217;s no need for (radical/strong) emergence.</p><h3><strong>Idealism and Anti-Realism</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png" width="373" height="264" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/a5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:264,&quot;width&quot;:373,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!dkWZ!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa5063d5b-d851-4900-b127-26bf2cae0a25_373x264.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>On the surface at least, Hoffman seems to take a very strong<strong> </strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism">idealist</a> position when he says that <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7RKaDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT84&amp;lpg=PT84&amp;dq=&#8220;brains+and+neurons+do+not+exist+unperceived#v=onepage&amp;q=&#8220;brains%20and%20neurons%20do%20not%20exist%20unperceived">&#8220;brains and neurons do not exist unperceived&#8221;</a>. (This is exactly what <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley#Immaterialism">Bishop Berkeley</a> argued; thought not, of course, about &#8220;brains and neurons&#8221;.) Now this <em>isn&#8217;t</em> an expression of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism">anti-realism</a> because an anti-realist wouldn&#8217;t say that any <em>x </em>doesn&#8217;t exist &#8220;when unperceived&#8221;. He&#8217;d simply say that our perceptions &#8220;colour&#8221; what it is we take to exist. And there&#8217;s no way around that.</p><p>All this displays the very common problem of conflating (or confusing) idealism and anti-realism.</p><p>Despite having just stated that, there<em> is</em> a strong sense in which one <em>can</em> derive idealist conclusions from anti-realist statements. That is:</p><blockquote><p><strong>i) If we describe things as &#8220;brains and neurons&#8221;,</strong></p><p><strong>ii) and those descriptions are contingent&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and dependent&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;upon persons/observers, concepts, theories, etc.,</strong></p><p><strong>iii) then perhaps we may as well conclude that brains and neurons &#8220;do not exist unperceived&#8221;.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Brains and neurons (as well as other objects) don&#8217;t exist until we describe/observe them. (This echoes, to some extent at least, the debate which surrounded Niels Bohr&#8217;s Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;see later section.) That&#8217;s true enough. However, why embrace the idealist conclusion that everything that exists only does so in the minds of persons? That route leads to idealism, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivism#Metaphysical_subjectivism">subjectivism</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism">solipsism</a> and <a href="https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Woo">woo</a>.</p><p>In addition, what does Hoffman mean when he states that brains and neurons &#8220;have no causal power&#8221;? I ask that question because he doesn&#8217;t explain it in the passages just quoted (though he may well do elsewhere). What&#8217;s more, he concludes that this lack of causal power is &#8220;why we&#8217;ve never been able to boot up consciousness from neural activity&#8221;. So what does all that mean?</p><h3><strong>Kant&#8217;s Transcendental Idealism</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg" width="451" height="252" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/fee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:252,&quot;width&quot;:451,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZqeG!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffee69981-fe94-4e0c-a30d-9a1b2cfeea5d_451x252.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Hoffman&#8217;s main problem with<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant"> Immanuel Kant</a>&#8217;s position on <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon">noumena</a></em> is that he believes that it&#8217;s not scientific. Or, less strongly, he believes that Kant&#8217;s position doesn&#8217;t look promising from a scientific perspective.</p><p>As Hoffman<a href="https://www.academia.edu/35434842/Conscious_Realism_and_the_Mind-Body_Problem"> puts it</a> about one &#8220;interpretation&#8221; of Kant:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;This interpretation of Kant precludes any science of the noumenal, for if we cannot describe the noumenal then we cannot build scientific theories of it.&#8221;</p></div><p>Yet Hoffman&#8217;s own <em>conscious realism</em> isn&#8217;t a scientific theory either. Sure, it&#8217;s clearly the case that Hoffman believes that it is. He <a href="https://mafiadoc.com/conscious-realism-and-the-mind-body-problem-citeseerx_59ae06201723ddbdc5604de4.html">says that</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[c]onscious realism, by contrast, offers a scientific theory of the noumenal, viz., a mathematical formulation of conscious agents and their dynamical interactions&#8221;.</p></div><p>Hoffman often defends his conscious realism by talking about its &#8220;mathematical models&#8221;, etc (or by using the words above&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;i.e., &#8220;a mathematical formulation&#8221;). Despite that, only the mathematical models or &#8220;formulations&#8221; used in conscious realism are scientific (or mathematical). All the additions to that are examples of speculative philosophy. So this isn&#8217;t that unlike people using mathematics and scientific terminology to defend&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or back up&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;astrology, astral travelling, ley lines, Creationism, etc. (This aspect of Hoffman&#8217;s conscious realism can&#8217;t be tackled now. I&#8217;ve tackled it <a href="http://paulaustinmurphypam.blogspot.com/2020/01/donald-hoffmans-eye-candy-conscious.html">here</a>.)</p><p>In addition, if conscious realism really &#8220;offers a scientific theory of the noumenal&#8221;, then it&#8217;s not the <em>noumenal</em> that it&#8217;s offering a scientific theory of. Of course, this may be terminological pedantry in that, to Hoffman, the noumenal isn&#8217;t in fact <em>noumenal at all</em>. Thus, he believes that he <em>can</em> offer a scientific theory of it. Kant, on the other hand, created a theory in which noumena were&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;<em>by definition</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;not only beyond science, but beyond &#8220;cognitive agents&#8221; too.</p><p>Hoffman then expresses a position that <em>isn&#8217;t </em>at odds with either anti-realism or Kant&#8217;s <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_idealism#Kant%27s_transcendental_idealism">transcendental idealism</a></em>. He <a href="https://www.academia.edu/35434842/Conscious_Realism_and_the_Mind-Body_Problem">writes</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Many interpretations of Kant have him claiming that the sun and planets, tables and chairs, are not mind-independent, but depend for their existence on our perception. With this claim of Kant, conscious realism and MUI theory agree. Of course many current theorists disagree.&#8221;</p></div><p>The wording in the above isn&#8217;t quite right. Hoffman says that Kant believed that the</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;sun and planets, tables and chairs, are not mind-independent, but depend for their existence on our perception&#8221;.</p></div><p>Surely it&#8217;s best to say that some<em> things</em> (whatever they are) exist mind-independently. The problem is that they don&#8217;t exist <em>as</em> the sun, planets, tables and chairs. That is, the fact that we see these things this way is a result of our contingent modes of &#8220;perception&#8221;, as well as our concepts, theories, language, etc. However, this is still not idealism because Kant&#8217;s <em>noumena </em>exist. In addition, they aren&#8217;t the contents of consciousness. So this is transcendental idealism; not <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley#Immaterialism">immaterialism</a> or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism#Subjective_idealism">subjective idealism</a>.</p><p>To sum up. Whatever is &#8220;behind&#8221; (or the cause of) our perceptions is not itself dependent on consciousness (or on our perceptions).</p><h3><strong>The Copenhagen Interpretation</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg" width="584" height="350" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:350,&quot;width&quot;:584,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YebH!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F825ffb11-b99a-43d6-bc8c-808d0c11f3ac_584x350.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Hoffman <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4060643/">states the following</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;Scientists believe that space, time, and objects exist even if they&#8217;re not perceived. That&#8217;s a fundamental assumption of most.&#8221;</p></div><p>So let&#8217;s reiterate what&#8217;s just been said above (i.e., before the subheading). Scientists (or at least some/most of them) <em>do</em> believe that objects exist even when not perceived. However, when they are perceived, then they&#8217;re given a determinate form&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;a form which is down to our contingent theories, experiments, perceptions/observations, concepts, languages, etc.</p><p>Secondly, not <em>all</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even<strong> </strong>most<strong>&#8202;</strong>&#8212;&#8202;scientists &#8220;believe that space, time, and objects exist even if they&#8217;re not perceived&#8221;. There have been (for many years) many physicists working on the <em><a href="https://psmag.com/environment/feel-space-time-maybe-exisitng-66647">non-existence</a></em> of both space and <a href="https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/newsflash-time-may-not-exist">time</a>, for example. (Admittedly, that&#8217;s a question of the very existence of space and time and it has nothing to do with our perceptions.) In addition, scientists aren&#8217;t philosophers. Thus, most scientists have little time for phrases like &#8220;objects exist even if they&#8217;re not perceived&#8221;.</p><p>This leads us to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.</p><p>Hoffman often applies the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation">Copenhagen interpretation</a> to the &#8220;classical&#8221; (or macro) scale. (Hoffman himself mentions the Copenhagen interpretation on a few occasions and at one point says that <a href="https://www.academia.edu/35434842/Conscious_Realism_and_the_Mind-Body_Problem">&#8220;most proponents of the Copenhagen interpretation embrace it only for the microscopic realm&#8221;</a>.) For example, <a href="http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/Hoffman-Stevens-Handbook.pdf">here&#8217;s Hoffman applying it</a> to DNA:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;For instance, [conscious realism] entails that DNA does not exist when it is not perceived. Something exists when we don&#8217;t look that causes us, when we do look, to perceive DNA, but, whatever that something is, it&#8217;s not DNA.&#8221;</p></div><p>Perhaps this is a bad example because at least DNA is a microphenomenon, if not a <em>subatomic</em> phenomenon. (DNA is determined by&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and dependent upon&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;quantum phenomena.) Elsewhere, however, Hoffman applies exactly the same argument to brains (as a whole), cups, trees, and other everyday macro-objects. Now, to state the obvious, there&#8217;s a vast difference between an electron and a tree.</p><p>Another point is that<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr"> Niels Bohr</a><strong> </strong>didn&#8217;t embrace idealism. There&#8217;s also a big difference between the stress on how we gain<strong> </strong>access to reality and the idealist position that it&#8217;s <em>all about what goes on in one&#8217;s head.</em> (Or within what Hoffman deems to be a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVI5yGKnKE">Collective Head</a>.) Anti-realists accept that there is a mind-independent world. However, we only gain access to that world through our brains, consciousnesses, concepts, languages, etc. Idealism, on the other hand, seems to have it that literally everything is in the minds of subjects (or <em>agents</em>). And, if that&#8217;s correct, then that puts idealism and anti-realism in radically different places. Yet, as is the case on so many occasions, anti-realism is basically seen as idealism (or, at the least, as a variety of idealism). Having said that, what Hoffman himself argues <em>doesn&#8217;t </em>make this distinction clear. And, because of that, it can be argued that Hoffman&#8217;s position is idealist rather than anti-realist.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Paul and Patricia Churchlands’ Strong Neuronal Activations For Each Other]]></title><description><![CDATA["One can't help wondering whether the Churchlands' early courtship involved poetry expressing the strength of their neuronal activations for each other." - Philip Goff]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/paul-and-patricia-churchlands-strong</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/paul-and-patricia-churchlands-strong</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2026 10:08:10 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!HEb-!,w_256,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F207c2bb6-1471-4254-a9dd-30253890826d_1280x1280.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>1) Introduction: Philip Goff on the Churchlands<br>2) The Future of Mind<br>3) Those Damn Propositional Attitudes!<br>4) Reductionism or Eliminativism?<br>5) Paul Churchland Believes That the Mind Exists<br>6) Mental Contents and Their Expressions<br>7) Problems With Eliminative Materialism<br>8) Conclusion</strong></p><h3>Introduction: Philip Goff on the Churchlands</h3><p><a href="https://philosophy.ceu.edu/people/philip-goff-0">Professor Philip Goff</a> (who&#8217;s a well known advocate of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism">panpsychism</a><strong>) </strong>tells us<strong> </strong>a joke (though it&#8217;s <em>possible</em> that it wasn&#8217;t meant as a joke) about Paul and Patricia Churchland and their general materialist position on the mind. He<strong> </strong><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Galileo_s_Error/lTd6DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22%28One+can%27t+help+wondering+whether+the+Churchlands%27+early+courtship+involved+poetry+expressing+the+strength+of+their+neuronal+activations+for+each+other.%29%22&amp;pg=PT13&amp;printsec=frontcover">writes</a>:</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;One can&#8217;t help wondering whether the Churchlands&#8217; early courtship involved poetry expressing the strength of their neuronal activations for each other.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>Of course, Paul and Patricia Churchland wouldn&#8217;t have used such neurobiological technical terms when they courted. And no one would use such a vocabulary today. That&#8217;s partly because it can be said that <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminative_materialism">eliminative materialism</a> (the position that Paul and Patricia Churchland advance) is a kind of philosophical <em><a href="https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/futurism">futurism</a></em> in that it&#8217;s a position that predicts what form future scientific theories will take. That is, the Churchlands believe that the sciences will&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or perhaps <em>may</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;one day reveal that the mental states we refer to every day (i.e., when we use words like &#8220;love&#8221;, &#8220;believe&#8221;, &#8220;desire&#8221;) do not refer to anything <em>real</em>.</p><p>So what about the <em>future</em>?</p><p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/On_the_Contrary/p33VqEtnkfkC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Neuroscience+may+appear+to+be+defective+in+providing+a+purely+%27third-person+account%27+of+mind,+but+only+familiarity+of+idiom+and+spontaneity+of+conceptual+response+are+required+to+make+it+a+%27first-person+account%27+as+well.+But+it+is+entirely+possible+for+a+person+or+culture+to+learn+and+use+some+other+framework+in+that+role,+the+framework+of+cognitive+neuroscience,+perhaps.%22&amp;pg=PA151&amp;printsec=frontcover">This is how</a> the Canadian philosopher<strong> </strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Churchland">Paul Churchland</a><strong> </strong>(1942- )<strong> </strong>himself states his <em>desire</em> for a new language of mind:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Neuroscience may appear to be defective in providing a purely &#8216;third-person account&#8217; of mind, but only familiarity of idiom and spontaneity of conceptual response are required to make it a &#8216;first-person account&#8217; as well. But it is entirely possible for a person or culture to learn and use some other framework in that role, the framework of cognitive neuroscience, perhaps.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>So is Philip Goff ruling out a change in vocabulary (as philosophers put it) <em>a priori</em>? And if he is, then why is he doing so?</p><p>After all, it&#8217;s a contingent fact that we use the terms we do to refer to our mental lives. Of course, it can be argued that the words we use about our mental lives are somehow <em>hardwired</em> into our brains. But is that really the case? Are there natural-language cognates of all the contemporary terms of Western <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_psychology">folk psychology</a></em><strong> </strong>which date back, say, 20,000<strong> </strong>years? (The first human languages are thought to have begun between 50,000 and 150,000 years ago.) And<strong> </strong>have such terms (when translated into other languages) really been used by all other cultures too?</p><p>Despite those questions, even if<em> </em>such terms <em>have</em> been the norm throughout all histories and all cultures, then that still doesn&#8217;t&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;of necessity&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;stop us from acquiring a different way of speaking about the mind.</p><p>More specifically, surely Philip Goff can&#8217;t be arguing that all the expressions of (in his example) <em>love</em> can&#8217;t&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;by definition&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;be expressed in terms of what he calls &#8220;neuronal activations&#8221;. Indeed, what&#8217;s <em>so</em> special about the words and concepts we currently use?</p><p>Yet, ironically enough, Goff himself unwittingly provides Paul Churchland with just the kind of argument he may well use himself. It just so happens that Goff (in this case) is talking about dualism, not love (or, for that matter, beliefs, desires, etc.). Goff <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Galileo_s_Error/lTd6DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=The+psychologist+Paul+Bloom+has+argued+that+dualist+thought+is+hardwired+into+use+and+that+from+an+early+age+children+categorize+mental+things+as+distinct+from+physical+things.&amp;pg=PT26&amp;printsec=frontcover">writes</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;The psychologist Paul Bloom has argued that dualist thought is hardwired into use and that from an early age children categorize &#8216;mental things&#8217; as distinct from &#8216;physical things.&#8217;&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>More relevantly, Goff immediately continues with these words:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Just because a view comes to us naturally or is hardwired, it doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s true [].&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>Goff&#8217;s joke is almost like a version of the <em>self-refuting argument</em> against eliminative materialism too. This argument has it that because eliminative materialists use words like &#8220;belief&#8221; and &#8220;true&#8221; (or they simply <em>believe</em> that eliminative materialism is<em> true</em>), then this is evidently <em>self-refuting</em>. And that&#8217;s simply because, according to eliminative materialism, such things as <em>truth</em> and <em>belief </em>don&#8217;t exist. (This is covered later when Quine raises the question as to whether eliminative materialism <em>expresses</em> various mental states in neurobiological terms or whether it eliminates them <em>tout court</em>.)</p><p>Paul and Patricia Churchland have offered ripostes against this argument. And Michael Devitt, for example, has offered a &#8220;deflationary&#8221; account of &#8220;<em>x</em> is true&#8221; that may help eliminative materialism.</p><p>Similarly (or at least fairly so), the serious part of Goff&#8217;s joke may be that in order for Paul and Patricia Churchland to be consistent about their belief in eliminative materialism, then when they courted, they should have used various words or terms from neurobiology to express their love for one another.</p><h3>The Future of Mind</h3><p>Paul Churchland goes into more detail on his own <em>futurism</em> <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Neurocomputational_Perspective/6jo18JL_DV8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Given+a+deep+and+practiced+familiarity+with+the+developing+idioms+of+cognitive+neurobiology,+we+might+learn+to+discriminate+by+introspection+the+coding+vectors+in+our+internal+axonal+pathways,+the+activation+patterns+across+salient+neural+populations,+and+myriad+other+things+besides.%22&amp;pg=PA75&amp;printsec=frontcover">in the following</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Given a deep and practiced familiarity with the developing idioms of cognitive neurobiology, we might learn to discriminate by introspection the coding vectors in our internal axonal pathways, the activation patterns across salient neural populations, and myriad other things besides.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>At present it would be virtually impossible (even for a neuroscientist) to describe our (to use Churchland&#8217;s own term) &#8220;first-person&#8221; thoughts, feelings and beliefs in terms of &#8220;coding vectors in our internal axonal pathways&#8221;, &#8220;activation patters across salient neural populations&#8221;, etc. It may even be hard to <em>imagine</em> such a state of affairs at present. Yet Churchland wasn&#8217;t talking about the case as it is <em>today</em>. He explicitly<a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Neurocomputational_Perspective/6jo18JL_DV8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22it+is+entirely+possible+for+a+person+or+culture+to+learn+and+use+some+other+framework+in+that+role%22&amp;pg=PA75&amp;printsec=frontcover"> stated that</a></p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;it is entirely possible for a person or culture to learn and use some other framework in that role&#8221;.</em></p></blockquote><p>Clearly this is a statement about <em>the future</em>. In other words, this isn&#8217;t about a elite of neuroscientists imposing a new language on the populace <em>today&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;</em>or even next year. (Or such an elite banning all the words from <em>folk psychology</em>.) That said, if the &#8220;language&#8221; of folk psychology has been with us since human language itself began, then perhaps Churchland&#8217;s wishes for the future may be a little utopian. (Or, depending on one&#8217;s views, dystopian.) After all, there&#8217;s surely a difference between picking up new words or terms (which happens all the time) and picking up a new language to talk about ours minds. However, this clearly isn&#8217;t something that won&#8217;t&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or can&#8217;t&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;happen in the future.</p><h3>Those Damn Propositional Attitudes!</h3><p>The following passage is a take on Paul Churchland&#8217;s general position on mind <a href="https://sites.google.com/site/minddict/churchland-paul">as expressed by Tadeusz Zawidzk</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Churchland is famous for for championing the thesis that our everyday, common-sense, &#8216;folk&#8217; psychology, which seeks to explain human behavior in terms of the beliefs and desires of agents, is actually a deeply flawed theory that must be eliminated in favor of a mature cognitive neuroscience.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>The main problem&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;so Churchland believes&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;with beliefs, desires, etc. is that they&#8217;re (deemed to be) <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_attitude">propositional attitudes</a></em>. And the main problem with propositional attitudes is that they (are seen to) have semantic and syntactic properties. Yet such semantic and syntactic properties can&#8217;t be translated into what goes on in the brain. Instead, what we really have are spiking <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequencies">frequencies</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential">action potentials</a> and other (neuroscientific) <em>things</em>. And these things, moreover, are distributed and continuous in nature, not precisely located in the brain or discrete.</p><p>Some philosophers have retorted that these mental states needn&#8217;t be seen as being <em>linguistic</em> in nature.</p><p>To take just one example. Many <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectionism">connectionist</a> models of the brain do make use of what&#8217;s called <em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_representation">representations</a></em> (see <a href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/connectionism/#ConRep">here</a>).<strong> </strong>Yet these (quasi?)representations are instantiated in the brain in a parallel and distributed manner (see <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/2214202">here</a>).</p><h3>Reductionism or Eliminativism?</h3><p>The important point now is to distinguish eliminative materialism from <a href="https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/reductionism-philosophy-mind">reductionism</a><strong> </strong>in the philosophy of mind.</p><p>Paul Churchland believes that &#8220;folk&#8221; concepts shouldn&#8217;t be <em>reduced</em> to something neurobiological or scientifically kosher: he believes that they should be <em>eliminated</em>.</p><p>Why is that?</p><p>It&#8217;s because he believes that they don&#8217;t correspond to anything (to use a philosophical term) <em>real</em> or <em>objective</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that is, to anything in the brain.</p><p>Of course, if beliefs, desires and the other propositional attitudes don&#8217;t exist in the first place, then it doesn&#8217;t really make sense to argue that <em>they</em> can be expressed in other ways. And, a few decades ago, the American philosopher <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Van_Orman_Quine">W.V.O. Quine</a> (1908&#8211;2000) made this point. <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Word_and_Object_new_edition/R-TxCwAAQBAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Is+physicalism+a+repudiation+of+mental+objects+after+all,+or+a+theory+of+them%3F+Does+it+repudiate+the+mental+state+of+pain+or+anger+in+favor+of+its+physical+concomitant,+or+does+it+identify+the+mental+state+with+a+state+of+the+physical+organism+%28and+so+a+state+of+the+physical+organism+with+the+mental+state%29%3F%22&amp;pg=PA244&amp;printsec=frontcover">He wrote</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Is physicalism a repudiation of mental objects after all, or a theory of them? Does it repudiate the mental state of pain or anger in favor of its physical concomitant, or does it identify the mental state with a state of the physical organism (and so a state of the physical organism with the mental state)?&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>So this can be expressed in the following way: either beliefs, desires, etc. exist and they&#8217;ll ultimately be explained in neurobiological terms&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or they don&#8217;t exist at all and therefore they can&#8217;t be expressed in<em> any</em> way.</p><p>Churchland would simply argue that it isn&#8217;t beliefs, desires, etc. that are being expressed with our Folk words or concepts&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that&#8217;s if these things <em>are seen</em> as <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00869624">&#8220;sentences in the head&#8221;</a>. And therefore it isn&#8217;t our beliefs, desires, etc. that are&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or will be - expressed in neurobiological terms either.</p><p>So all this becomes a little circular.</p><h3>Paul Churchland Believes That the Mind Exists</h3><p>Despite all the above, one point that&#8217;s worth making is that Paul Churchland&#8217;s position isn&#8217;t as extreme as some people (not least Philip Goff) paint it.</p><p>Firstly, Churchland accepts that reality of the mind. Or, at the very least, he uses the<em> word </em>&#8220;mind&#8221;. (After all, Churchland may want to substitute or eliminate that word too.) More specifically, the mind itself (as such) isn&#8217;t denied. Instead, Churchland&#8217;s eliminativism is a position which states that<strong> </strong>that certain types of mental states (mainly propositional attitudes) do not exist.</p><p>Now can we even have a <em>mind</em> without such mental states?</p><p>When it comes to <em>consciousness</em> (i.e., not the mind), Churchland (in his book <em><a href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/engine-reason-seat-soul">The Engine of Reason, The Seat of the Soul</a></em>) did argue that consciousness<em> </em>may&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;in the <em>future&#8202;</em>&#8212;&#8202;be explained entirely in terms of neurobiology&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;i.e., physical events in the brain, biochemicals, parts of the brain, etc.</p><p>Yet here again (as with beliefs, desires, etc. earlier) the following can be asked:</p><blockquote><p><strong>Is it the case that consciousness does in fact exist but that it can be&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or must be&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;described (or expressed) in terms of neurobiology?</strong></p></blockquote><p>Or alternatively:</p><blockquote><p><strong>Is it that consciousness simply doesn&#8217;t exist at all and that all we need are neurobiological descriptions of people&#8217;s brains?</strong></p></blockquote><p>Churchland accepts that there is such thing as a &#8220;first-person account&#8221; of (my own two words) <em>inner processes </em>too.<strong> (</strong>He even uses the word &#8220;introspection&#8221;.) It&#8217;s just that Churchland also believes that these processes should be described in the language of neuroscience or cognitive neurobiology, not in the language of <em>folk psychology</em>. In these cases at least, then, we don&#8217;t really seem to have any <em>eliminations</em> at all. Perhaps that&#8217;s mainly because Churchland has focussed primarily on the propositional attitudes when it comes to his eliminativism. (Recall the earlier comments on his position on consciousness itself.)</p><p>(The words &#8220;inner processes<em>&#8221;</em> above are italicised because traditional behaviourists would never have been happy with any mention of them&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and, arguably, Daniel Dennett still isn&#8217;t.)</p><h3>Mental Content and its Expression</h3><p>Paul Churchland also <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Neurocomputational_Perspective/6jo18JL_DV8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22What+makes+an+account+a+%27first-person+account%27+is+not+the+content+of+that+account,+but+the+fact+that+one+has+learned+to+use+it+as+the+vehicle+of+spontaneous+conceptualization+in+introspection+and+self-description%22&amp;pg=PA75&amp;printsec=frontcover">stated the following</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;What makes an account a &#8216;first-person account&#8217; is not the content of that account, but the fact that one has learned to use it as the vehicle of spontaneous conceptualization in introspection and self-description.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>I don&#8217;t entirely understand Churchland&#8217;s phraseology when he writes &#8220;is not the content of that account&#8221;. His words may simply mean that we can make a distinction between (mental) &#8220;content&#8221; and the way we <em>express</em> that content. That is, there are things which occur in the mind regardless of the specific and contingent natural-language words we use to express them. (This is similar to the point philosophers have made&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;since Gottlob Frege <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/2251513">here</a>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;about a single abstract proposition which can be expressed by many natural-language sentences.) In other words, we&#8217;ve acquired the words/terms of folk psychology to talk about (mental) content in our &#8220;first-person account[s]&#8221;. So we could, in the future, use the terms of neurobiology&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;instead&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;to express that very same content. (Or at least similar content as it&#8217;s &#8220;found&#8221; in the future.)</p><p>So the fact that we use words like &#8220;belief&#8221; and even &#8220;love&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and have the concepts <em>belief</em> and <em>love</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;is a contingent fact about how we express such mental content. Indeed, such words are now &#8220;spontaneous&#8221; simply because we happen to have been brought up in a particular culture at a particular time. Now these words might well have been used for centuries or even much longer. Yet even that fact (if it is a fact) wouldn&#8217;t stop such words from being highly contingent and<strong> </strong>variable entities.</p><p>For example, think here of how the words &#8220;troll&#8221;, &#8220;hi-fi&#8221;, &#8220;progressive&#8221;, &#8220;computer&#8221;, &#8220;transgender&#8221;, &#8220;race&#8221;, &#8220;electron&#8221;, etc. would have sounded (or seemed) to a 19th century person - let alone to a person from the 203 BC.</p><p>Despite all that, the words we use today may still seem entirely natural. They may even<em> be</em> entirely natural&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;what else can they be?</p><p>But so what?</p><h3>Problems With Eliminative Materialism</h3><p>There are problems with Churchland&#8217;s position. Take <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Neurocomputational_Perspective/6jo18JL_DV8C?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=%22Given+a+deep+and+practiced+familiarity+with+the+developing+idioms+of+cognitive+neurobiology,+we+might+learn+to+discriminate+by+introspection+the+coding+vectors+in+our+internal+axonal+pathways,+the+activation+patterns+across+salient+neural+populations,+and+myriad+other+things+besides.%22&amp;pg=PA75&amp;printsec=frontcover">this passage</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Given a deep and practiced familiarity with the developing idioms of cognitive neurobiology, we might learn to discriminate by introspection the coding vectors in our internal axonal pathways, the activation patterns across salient neural populations, and myriad other things besides.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>This is an odd.</p><p>Firstly, it seems to hint at the possibility that literally everyone in our community could&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even <em>should</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;learn the &#8220;idioms of cognitive neurobiology&#8221;. Alternatively, does Churchland simply believe that these terms would&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or could&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;be passed down from scientists to the whole population? Surely he can&#8217;t believe that they could be taught to&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even enforced upon&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;the populace! (The word &#8220;abolished&#8221; has indeed been used in the eliminative materialism literature, and might even have been used by Paul Churchland himself&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;see<a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=folk+psychology+should+be+%22abolished%22&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=wl0sYe6dNKiMlwS0rr94&amp;iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYSxr0nlAcV-0rVD7s_u4TL2xJMIkicFo&amp;oq=folk+psychology+should+be+%22abolished%22&amp;gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCAghEBYQHRAeOhQILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAxCTAjoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CAgAELEDEIMBOggILhCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEK8BOggIABCABBCxAzoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEELEDEJMCOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToOCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEQyQM6DgguEIAEEMcBEK8BEJMCOgYIABAWEB46CAgAEBYQChAeOgUIIRCgAToHCCEQChCgAToECCEQFVDTAVjyRGDcSmgAcAB4AIABY4gB2xaSAQIzN5gBAKABAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjuhrrN89fyAhUoxoUKHTTXDw8Q4dUDCAo&amp;uact=5"> here</a>.)</p><p>The basic point here is that languages aren&#8217;t imposed or passed down&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;they grow organically and over time. Of course, particular <em>words </em>or even <em>ways of speaking</em> can be taught, suggested or even <em>imposed. </em>(This is happening today&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;at least to some extent&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;in the political domain.)<em> </em>But is it likely that all speakers and thinkers would need to know <em>anything</em>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;let alone much&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;about neurobiology? Again, perhaps the terms from neurobiology will&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or may&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;simply filter down in the way that so many other words/terms from academia or science have filtered down over the years. (This is especially the case when it comes to political terms from academia.)</p><h3>Conclusion</h3><p>In purely personal terms, I can&#8217;t even imagine expressing anything in terms of my brain&#8217;s &#8220;coding vectors in internal axonal pathways&#8221;, &#8220;the activation patterns across salient neural populations&#8221;, etc. That&#8217;s simply because I know very little about neurobiology. And most other people know very little about neurobiology too. But, again, Paul Churchland was talking about the <em>future</em>. In addition and as just stated, academic or scientific terms being passed (or filtered) down&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;if over time&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;to the populace is a commonplace fact. So perhaps that&#8217;s what Churchland had in mind.</p><h3>[I can be found on Twitter <a href="https://twitter.com/PaulAustinMurp2">here</a>.]</h3><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Roger Penrose on Brain and Mind: From the Quantum Scale to the Large Scale ]]></title><description><![CDATA[1) Introduction]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/roger-penrose-on-brain-and-mind-from</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/roger-penrose-on-brain-and-mind-from</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2026 11:36:15 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg" width="1250" height="703" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:703,&quot;width&quot;:1250,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!wD_Q!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F5331e10f-c08f-4de0-a046-8dd4812eef07_1250x703.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB2Q7F93tV8">Source</a></figcaption></figure></div><p><strong>1) Introduction<br>2) The Quantum Scale and the Large Scale<br>3) The Brain and Quantum Gravity<br>4) Daniel Dennett&#8217;s Quantum Car<br>5) Microtubules</strong></p><p>Throughout Roger Penrose&#8217;s writings on the brain, consciousness, physics and cosmology, the issue of the link between the quantum scale and the large (&#8220;classical&#8221;) scale is constantly broached. Indeed, all this strongly links in with Penrose&#8217;s attempt to tie general relativity (or gravity) and quantum mechanics together.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><p>Penrose&#8217;s own individualistic position on the relation between the quantum scale and the large scale is expressed <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X28sDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA451&amp;lpg=PA451&amp;dq=%E2%80%9C..+I+am+not+concerned+so+much+with+the+effects+that+quantum+mechanics+might+have+on+our+theory+%28Einstein%E2%80%99s+general+relativity%29+of+the+structure+of+space-time,+but+with+the+reverse:+namely+the+effects+that+Einstein%E2%80%99s+space-time+theory+might+have+on+the+very+structure+of+quantum+mechanics.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9C..%20I%20am%20not%20concerned%20so%20much%20with%20the%20effects%20that%20quantum%20mechanics%20might%20have%20on%20our%20theory%20%28Einstein%E2%80%99s%20general%20relativity%29%20of%20the%20structure%20of%20space-time,%20but%20with%20the%20reverse:%20namely%20the%20effects%20that%20Einstein%E2%80%99s%20space-time%20theory%20might%20have%20on%20the%20very%20structure%20of%20quantum%20mechanics.">in the following</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;I am not concerned so much with the effects that quantum mechanics might have on our theory (Einstein&#8217;s general relativity) of the structure of space-time, but with the reverse: namely the effects that Einstein&#8217;s space-time theory might have on the very structure of quantum mechanics.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>This is (as Penrose himself puts it) &#8220;an unconventional view-point&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or it was in 1990. <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X28sDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA451&amp;lpg=PA451&amp;dq=%E2%80%9Cunconventional+that+general+relativity+should+have+any+influence+at+all+on+the+structure+of+quantum+mechanics!#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9Cunconventional%20that%20general%20relativity%20should%20have%20any%20influence%20at%20all%20on%20the%20structure%20of%20quantum%20mechanics!">It&#8217;s</a> &#8220;unconventional that general relativity should have any influence at all on the structure of quantum mechanics!&#8221; More basically, Penrose believes that &#8220;the problems within quantum theory itself are of a fundamental character&#8221;.</p><p>In terms of the brain and mind, Penrose concluded&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;again, 28 years ago&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;<a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X28sDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA453&amp;lpg=PA453&amp;dq=%E2%80%9Cany+putative+quantum+gravity+theory+would+surely+be+very+remote+from+the+phenomena+governing+the+behaviour+of+brains#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9Cany%20putative%20quantum%20gravity%20theory%20would%20surely%20be%20very%20remote%20from%20the%20phenomena%20governing%20the%20behaviour%20of%20brains">by saying that</a> &#8220;any putative quantum gravity theory would surely be very remote from the phenomena governing the behaviour of brains&#8221;. Nonetheless, the following is the crux of Penrose&#8217;s <em>current</em> position:</p><ol><li><p><strong>Quantum gravity (or the &#8220;structure of space-time&#8221;) may have an impact on quantum mechanics.</strong></p></li><li><p><strong>Therefore quantum gravity may affect the nature of the brain and mind.</strong></p></li></ol><p>At the most basic level, gravitation and general relativity aren&#8217;t integrated into quantum theory. That alone makes Penrose&#8217;s views on the brain, mind and consciousness speculative.</p><p>In terms of the brain and mind (or consciousness), most neuroscientists and many philosophers believe that quantum phenomena (or quantum events/effects/conditions/etc.) have very little effect on the brain and therefore on the mind (or consciousness) as a whole. Or, at the very least, that the differences they do make <em>don&#8217;t really make a difference</em>.</p><h3><strong>The Quantum Scale &amp; the Large Scale</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, 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data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:360,&quot;width&quot;:480,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!WPq3!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7c68ab46-d311-497b-bb7b-d07c31b16dbc_480x360.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption">Left by <a href="https://flickr.com/photos/neurollero/albums/with/366106">Mark Miller</a>. Right by<a href="http://www.virgo.dur.ac.uk/"> Virgo Consortium for Cosmological Supercomputer Simulations</a>.</figcaption></figure></div><p>As stated above, Penrose notes the <em>micro-macro</em> situation in ways that don&#8217;t directly relate to the brain and mind. In the following, for example, he notes the contextual (i.e., micro or macro) nature of the notion of randomness (or probabilities). That is, Penrose notes how randomness is a consequence of scientists observing quantum effects/events/conditions/etc. at the &#8220;classical level&#8221;. In Penrose&#8217;s <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V3x1YPgvOJcC&amp;pg=PA243&amp;lpg=PA243&amp;dq=Since+randomness+comes+in,+quantum+theory+is+called+probabilistic.+But+randomness+only+comes+in+when+you+go+from+the+quantum+to+the+classical+level.+If+you+stay+down+at+the+quantum+level,+theres+no+randomness.+Its+only+when+you+magnify+something+up,+and+you+do+what+people+call+make+a+measurement.+This+consists+of+taking+a+small-scale+quantum+effect+and+magnifying+it+out+to+a+level+where+you+can+see+it.+Its+only+in+that+process+of+magnification+that+probabilities+come+in.&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=9xyfk4uK8e&amp;sig=1PuRFdq316XHWJbKUs-jN_-HrhI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjG95fco__ZAhXlCsAKHQhaAnYQ6AEIUTAD#v=onepage&amp;q=Since%20randomness%20comes%20in,%20quantum%20theory%20is%20called%20probabilistic.%20But%20randomness%20only%20comes%20in%20when%20you%20go%20from%20the%20quantum%20to%20the%20classical%20level.%20If%20you%20stay%20down%20at%20the%20quantum%20level,%20theres%20no%20randomness.%20Its%20only%20when%20you%20magnify%20something%20up,%20and%20you%20do%20what%20people%20call%20make%20a%20measurement.%20This%20consists%20of%20taking%20a%20small-scale%20quantum%20effect%20and%20magnifying%20it%20out%20to%20a%20level%20where%20you%20can%20see%20it.%20Its%20only%20in%20that%20process%20of%20magnification%20that%20probabilities%20come%20in.&amp;f=false">own words</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Since randomness comes in, quantum theory is called probabilistic. But randomness only comes in when you go from the quantum to the classical level. If you stay down at the quantum level, there&#8217;s no randomness. It&#8217;s only when you magnify something up, and you do what people call &#8216;make a measurement&#8217;. This consists of taking a small-scale quantum effect and magnifying it out to a level where you can see it. It&#8217;s only in that process of magnification that probabilities come in.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>This can be deemed to be an epistemic problem, rather than an ontological one. That is, the probabilities (or randomness) arises not from the ontology of the quantum world, but from our epistemic access to it. (This conclusion, at least as it partly applies to quantum indeterminism, dates back to Albert Einstein and was elaborated upon by such people as David Bohm.)</p><p>The other point that&#8217;s worth making about Penrose&#8217;s position (as quoted above) is that it goes against the stress on quantum indeterminism as it&#8217;s often used in reference to the brain and mind (or consciousness). In other words, Penrose (at least in this context) is de-stressing the random (or indeterministic) nature of the quantum realm; whereas many others (at least in the debate about mind) play it up. (&#8220;Quantum indeterminism&#8221; is particularly stressed as one explanation of free will.) It must be said here that the words &#8220;random&#8221; and &#8220;indeterminate&#8221; (or &#8220;randomness&#8221; and &#8220;indeterminacy&#8221;) aren&#8217;t exactly synonyms. Nonetheless, in the debate about the (as it&#8217;s often put) &#8220;quantum mind&#8221; , these words are often treated as synonyms (or, at the very least, as near-synonyms).</p><p>If we now return to the quantum scale and the large scale.</p><p>On a much broader level we can also take Brian Greene&#8217;s (a Professor of Physics and Mathematics at Columbia University)<a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dpSqvJpLe8oC&amp;pg=PT421&amp;lpg=PT421&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CIt%27s+not+as+though+the+universe+comes+equipped+with+a+line+in+the+sand+separating+things+that+are+properly+described+by+quantum+mechanics+from+things+properly+described+by+general+relativity.+Dividing+the+universe+into+two+separate+realms+seems+both+artificial+and+clumsy.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CIt%27s%20not%20as%20though%20the%20universe%20comes%20equipped%20with%20a%20line%20in%20the%20sand%20separating%20things%20that%20are%20properly%20described%20by%20quantum%20mechanics%20from%20things%20properly%20described%20by%20general%20relativity.%20Dividing%20the%20universe%20into%20two%20separate%20realms%20seems%20both%20artificial%20and%20clumsy."> general point</a> about this micro-macro distinction:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;It&#8217;s not as though the universe comes equipped with a line in the sand separating things that are properly described by quantum mechanics from things properly described by general relativity. Dividing the universe into two separate realms seems both artificial and clumsy.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>This position seems to back up Penrose&#8217;s previous points about how different levels of description (which are brought about by the effect of &#8220;measurement&#8221; or observation) determine Greene&#8217;s &#8220;line in the sand&#8221; between the quantum realm and the &#8220;classical&#8221; realm.</p><p>And, yet again, Penrose notes these different levels when he talks about Newtonian mechanics, relativity and quantum theory. He stresses the compatibility of these different levels of description/application and their respective &#8220;limits&#8221;. <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V3x1YPgvOJcC&amp;pg=PA243&amp;lpg=PA243&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CCurrent+physics+ideas+will+survive+as+limiting+behavior,+in+the+same+sense+that+Newtonian+mechanics+survives+relativity.+Relativity+modifies+Newtonian+mechanics,+but+it+doesn%27t+really+supplant+it.+Newtonian+mechanics+is+still+there+as+a+limit.+In+the+same+sense,+quantum+theory,+as+we+now+use+it,+and+classical+physics,+which+includes+Einstein%27s+general+theory,+are+limits+of+some+theory+we+don%27t+yet+have.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CCurrent%20physics%20ideas%20will%20survive%20as%20limiting%20behavior,%20in%20the%20same%20sense%20that%20Newtonian%20mechanics%20survives%20relativity.%20Relativity%20modifies%20Newtonian%20mechanics,%20but%20it%20doesn%27t%20really%20supplant%20it.%20Newtonian%20mechanics%20is%20still%20there%20as%20a%20limit.%20In%20the%20same%20sense,%20quantum%20theory,%20as%20we%20now%20use%20it,%20and%20classical%20physics,%20which%20includes%20Einstein%27s%20general%20theory,%20are%20limits%20of%20some%20theory%20we%20don%27t%20yet%20have.">He says</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Current physics ideas will survive as limiting behavior, in the same sense that Newtonian mechanics survives relativity. Relativity modifies Newtonian mechanics, but it doesn&#8217;t really supplant it. Newtonian mechanics is still there as a limit. In the same sense, quantum theory, as we now use it, and classical physics, which includes Einstein&#8217;s general theory, are limits of some theory we don&#8217;t yet have.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>In the above we can see that rather than measurement (or observation) splitting the universe into two realms, Penrose stresses the respective &#8220;limits&#8221; of these realms instead.</p><h3><strong>The Brain &amp; Quantum Gravity</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg" width="780" height="585" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/b09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:585,&quot;width&quot;:780,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!49Qm!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb09b952b-49db-46ea-b959-dbeecf2feb12_780x585.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Roger Penrose was&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and still is&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;deeply aware of the arguments against his central position on the brain and mind (or consciousness). Indeed, when he wrote <em>The Emperor&#8217;s New Mind </em>(in 1990)<em> </em>he didn&#8217;t have an original position on the quantum nature of the brain. Specifically, microtubules aren&#8217;t mentioned in this well-known book. And even neurons and neurotransmitters only get four mentions.</p><p>This is what <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X28sDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA451&amp;lpg=PA451&amp;dq=%E2%80%9C...+they+would+argue+that+on+a+scale+relevant+to+our+brains+the+physical+effects+of+any+quantum+gravity+must+be+totally+insignificant!+They+would+say+%28very+reasonably%29+that+although+such+physical+effects+might+indeed+be+important+at+the+absurdly+tiny+distance+scale+known+as+the+Planck+length+%E2%80%94+which+is+10+35+m,+some+100000000000000000000+times+smaller+than+the+size+of+the+tiniest+subatomic+particle+%E2%80%94+these+effects+should+have+no+direct+relevance+whatever+to+phenomena+at+the+far+far+larger+%E2%80%98ordinary%E2%80%99+scales+of,+say,+down+only+to+10+12+m,+where+the+chemical+or+electrical+processes+that+are+important+to+brain+activity+hold+sway.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9C...%20they%20would%20argue%20that%20on%20a%20scale%20relevant%20to%20our%20brains%20the%20physical%20effects%20of%20any%20quantum%20gravity%20must%20be%20totally%20insignificant!%20They%20would%20say%20%28very%20reasonably%29%20that%20although%20such%20physical%20effects%20might%20indeed%20be%20important%20at%20the%20absurdly%20tiny%20distance%20scale%20known%20as%20the%20Planck%20length%20%E2%80%94%20which%20is%2010%2035%20m,%20some%20100000000000000000000%20times%20smaller%20than%20the%20size%20of%20the%20tiniest%20subatomic%20particle%20%E2%80%94%20these%20effects%20should%20have%20no%20direct%20relevance%20whatever%20to%20phenomena%20at%20the%20far%20far%20larger%20%E2%80%98ordinary%E2%80%99%20scales%20of,%20say,%20down%20only%20to%2010%2012%20m,%20where%20the%20chemical%20or%20electrical%20processes%20that%20are%20important%20to%20brain%20activity%20hold%20sway.">Penrose also had to say</a> (in the same book) on the opposition&#8217;s position on the brain, quantum mechanics and consciousness:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;[T]hey would argue that on a scale relevant to our brains the physical effects of any quantum gravity must be totally insignificant! They would say (very reasonably) that although such physical effects might indeed be important at the absurdly tiny distance scale known as the Planck length&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;which is 10&#8315;&#179;&#8309; m, some 100000000000000000000 times smaller than the size of the tiniest subatomic particle&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;these effects should have no direct relevance whatever to phenomena at the far far larger &#8216;ordinary&#8217; scales of, say, down only to 10&#8315;&#185;&#178; m, where the chemical or electrical processes that are important to brain activity hold sway.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>In fact Penrose went further by saying that his detractors would claim that not even ordinary gravity can affect the brain. He wrote, &#8220;Indeed, even classical (i.e. non-quantum) gravity has almost no influence on these electrical and chemical activities.&#8221;</p><p>Penrose concluded <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X28sDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA451&amp;lpg=PA451&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CIf+classical+gravity+is+of+no+consequence,+then+how+on+earth+could+any+tiny+%E2%80%98quantum+correction%E2%80%99+to+the+classical+theory+make+any+difference+at+all?+Moreover,+since+deviations+from+quantum+theory+have+never+been+observed,+it+would+seem+to+be+even+more+unreasonable+to+imagine+that+any+tiny+putative+deviation+from+standard+quantum+theory+could+have+any+conceivable+role+to+play+in+mental+phenomena!#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CIf%20classical%20gravity%20is%20of%20no%20consequence,%20then%20how%20on%20earth%20could%20any%20tiny%20%E2%80%98quantum%20correction%E2%80%99%20to%20the%20classical%20theory%20make%20any%20difference%20at%20all?%20Moreover,%20since%20deviations%20from%20quantum%20theory%20have%20never%20been%20observed,%20it%20would%20seem%20to%20be%20even%20more%20unreasonable%20to%20imagine%20that%20any%20tiny%20putative%20deviation%20from%20standard%20quantum%20theory%20could%20have%20any%20conceivable%20role%20to%20play%20in%20mental%20phenomena!">with the following skeptical words</a>. (At least as he then believed that they&#8217;d be expressed by his opponents.) He wrote:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;If classical gravity is of no consequence, then how on earth could any tiny &#8216;quantum correction&#8217; to the classical theory make any difference at all? Moreover, since deviations from quantum theory have never been observed, it would seem to be even more unreasonable to imagine that any tiny putative deviation from standard quantum theory could have any conceivable role to play in mental phenomena!&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>Thus, at this period in Penrose&#8217;s career (in the early 1990s), his position squared perfectly well with Murray Gell-Mann&#8217;s later position when <a href="https://www.edge.org/documents/ThirdCulture/v-Ch.14.html">Gell-Mann wrote</a> the following:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;[W]hat characterises </em>[Roger Penrose&#8217;s] <em>proposal </em>[ ]<em> is the notion that consciousness is somehow connected with quantum gravity&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;that is to say, the incorporation of Einsteinian general-relativistic gravitation into quantum field theory. I can see absolutely no reason for imagining such a thing.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>And all this brings us to Dennett&#8217;s quantum car.</p><h3><strong>Daniel Dennett&#8217;s Quantum Car</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg" width="298" height="169" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:169,&quot;width&quot;:298,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!97uX!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F7f6eb987-1ed2-45ca-b7d9-8257c4a0ce15_298x169.jpeg 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div></div></div></a></figure></div><p>Daniel Dennett put this micro-macro quandary very well. He argued (to paraphrase): <em>Sure, there are quantum happenings in the brain or neurons. Then again, there are quantum happenings in your car, watch and computer. </em><a href="https://www.edge.org/conversation/roger_penrose-chapter-14-consciousness-involves-noncomputable-ingredients">In full</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Most biologists think that quantum effects all just cancel out in the brain, that there&#8217;s no reason to think they&#8217;re harnessed in any way. Of course they&#8217;re there; quantum effects are there in your car, your watch, and your computer. But most things&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;most macroscopic objects&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;are, as it were, oblivious to quantum effects. They don&#8217;t amplify them; they don&#8217;t hinge on them. Roger thinks that the brain somehow exploits quantum effects.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>We will now need to know why &#8220;quantum effects&#8221; don&#8217;t transfer&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or apply&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;to the brain as a whole. Or, more specifically, we need to know why they don&#8217;t cause (or help bring about) mental phenomena or consciousness. That is, why is there such a sharp dividing line between the micro (Dennett&#8217;s &#8220;quantum effects&#8221;) and the macro (the brain or mind/consciousness)? Surely there can&#8217;t be such a neat and tiny cut-off point between these two worlds. (Then again, it&#8217;s not logically absurd to argue that there is indeed such a cut-off point.)</p><blockquote><p><strong>Sure, there are quantum happenings in the brain or neurons. Then again, there are quantum happenings in your car, watch and computer.</strong></p></blockquote><p>It&#8217;s true that in order for Dennett&#8217;s watch (or car) to be a watch (or car), it doesn&#8217;t depend on the quantum effects which are occurring inside it. However, why should that also be true of the brain and its relation to mind (or consciousness)? The nature and functioning of a car (or watch) is very different to the reality and functioning of the brain and mind/consciousness. A car (or watch) is oblivious to the quantum effects inside&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;though only if it isn&#8217;t treated <em>qua</em> car (or watch)! However, it&#8217;s of course the case that a car (or watch) can also be analysed as a medium of quantum effects (though not, again, <em>qua</em> car/watch). Then again, it is strictly true that a car (or watch)&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;<em>qua</em> car (or watch)!&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;doesn&#8217;t depend on quantum effects/events/conditions? Surely it does so in the simple sense that if there were no quantum effects/events/conditions, then there would be no car (or watch) either. And, yes, it&#8217;s true that this applies to literally all other natural objects&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;and artificial objects as well.</p><p>Despite all that, according to Penrose, quantum effects/events/conditions do indeed have an effect on the large scale. He <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JF4vDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT423&amp;lpg=PT423&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CThe+very+existence+of+solid+bodies,+the+strengths+and+physical+properties+of+materials,+the+nature+of+chemistry,+the+colours+of+substances,+the+phenomena+of+freezing+and+boiling,+the+reliability+of+inheritance+%E2%80%94+these,+and+many+other+familiar+properties,+require+the+quantum+theory+for+their+explanations.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CThe%20very%20existence%20of%20solid%20bodies,%20the%20strengths%20and%20physical%20properties%20of%20materials,%20the%20nature%20of%20chemistry,%20the%20colours%20of%20substances,%20the%20phenomena%20of%20freezing%20and%20boiling,%20the%20reliability%20of%20inheritance%20%E2%80%94%20these,%20and%20many%20other%20familiar%20properties,%20require%20the%20quantum%20theory%20for%20their%20explanations.">makes that plain here</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;The very existence of solid bodies, the strengths and physical properties of materials, the nature of chemistry, the colours of substances, the phenomena of freezing and boiling, the reliability of inheritance&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;these, and many other familiar properties, require the quantum theory for their explanations.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>However, even though it&#8217;s true that these &#8220;solid bodies&#8221;, etc. may &#8220;require the quantum theory for their explanations&#8221;, that doesn&#8217;t also automatically mean that such quantum effects are in any way substantive. It simply means that quantum mechanics is a part of the whole picture. So, in the sense of supplying a complete picture of such &#8220;bodies&#8221; and &#8220;materials&#8221;&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;then, yes, of course quantum theory will be required.</p><p>Ironically enough, Dennett himself does accept that quantum events/effects/conditions/etc. influence (or affect) the large scale. <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C5pUnN1-vhcC&amp;pg=PT284&amp;lpg=PT284&amp;dq=Dennett,+stunningly+successful+at+predicting+and+explaining+many+phenomena,+including+everyday+phenomena+such+as+the+reflection+and+refraction+of+lights,+and+the+operation+of+the+proteins+in+our+retinas+that+permit+us+to+see&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=vh-yyh3APr&amp;sig=dpaVJNyK1COfZJPbQLfDBElsy8I&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjIxLeVpYDaAhXGKsAKHZ-_B84Q6AEIKzAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Dennett,%20stunningly%20successful%20at%20predicting%20and%20explaining%20many%20phenomena,%20including%20everyday%20phenomena%20such%20as%20the%20reflection%20and%20refraction%20of%20lights,%20and%20the%20operation%20of%20the%20proteins%20in%20our%20retinas%20that%20permit%20us%20to%20see&amp;f=false">He says that </a>quantum mechanics is</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;stunningly successful at predicting and explaining many phenomena, including everyday phenomena such as the reflection and refraction of lights, and the operation of the proteins in our retinas that permit us to see&#8221;.</em></p></blockquote><p>It may still be the case that because</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum mechanics can &#8220;predict and explain&#8221; (remember that Penrose also used the word &#8220;explanation&#8221;) such things as &#8220;the reflection and refraction of lights&#8221;</strong></p></blockquote><p>that this doesn&#8217;t also mean that</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum mechanics has an (causal) impact on these things.</strong></p></blockquote><p>&#8230;. Then again, surely it does mean that!</p><p>And if all this is true of the aforementioned light and protein molecules, then why can&#8217;t it also be true of the brain and consciousness? Of course the parallels between</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum mechanics and the reflection and refraction of light</strong></p></blockquote><p>and</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum mechanics and the brain and mind (or consciousness)</strong></p></blockquote><p>may not be parallel (or equivalent) in every respect. However, surely that wouldn&#8217;t matter too much in this case. What matters is whether or not quantum mechanics is having an impact on the brain and therefore on the mind (or consciousness). It doesn&#8217;t need to be the case that quantum mechanics does so in precisely the same way in which it impacts on (to use Penrose&#8217;s words again) &#8220;solid bodies, the strengths and physical properties of materials, the nature of chemistry, the colours of substances, the phenomena of freezing and boiling, the reliability of inheritance&#8221;.</p><p>To repeat: perhaps the quantum-mechanical <em>explanations</em> of these phenomena are at a different level to actually arguing that quantum-mechanical events actually <em>bring about</em> (or <em>cause</em>) such phenomena. Again, is there a difference between</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum mechanics explaining consciousness</strong></p></blockquote><p>and</p><blockquote><p><strong>quantum-mechanical effects/events/states causing (or bringing about) consciousness?</strong></p></blockquote><p>Surely if quantum mechanics can <em>explain</em> the mind (or consciousness), it can only do so because quantum-mechanical events/effects/conditions also <em>bring about</em> (or <em>cause</em>) the mind (or consciousness).</p><h3><strong>Microtubules</strong></h3><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png" width="1250" height="883" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:883,&quot;width&quot;:1250,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:true,&quot;topImage&quot;:false,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!cBz8!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F83c20418-a091-4df6-aac4-075aa757ccdc_1250x883.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" loading="lazy"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption">Thomas Splettstoesser (<a href="http://www.scistyle.com">www.scistyle.com</a>) [CC BY-SA 4.0 (<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0</a>)]</figcaption></figure></div><p>Having said all that, it&#8217;s the case that Penrose is fully aware of the need to explain this <em>micro-macro</em> link. <a href="https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V3x1YPgvOJcC&amp;pg=PA247&amp;lpg=PA247&amp;dq=%E2%80%9CFor+my+picture,+I+need+this+quantum-level+activity+in+the+microtubules;+the+activity+has+to+be+a+large-scale+thing+that+goes+not+just+from+one+microtubule+to+the+next+but+from+one+nerve+cell+to+the+next,+across+large+areas+of+the+brain.+We+need+some+kind+of+coherent+activity+of+a+quantum+nature+which+is+weakly+coupled+to+the+computational+activity+that+Hameroff+argues+is+taking+place+along+the+microtubules.#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9CFor%20my%20picture,%20I%20need%20this%20quantum-level%20activity%20in%20the%20microtubules;%20the%20activity%20has%20to%20be%20a%20large-scale%20thing%20that%20goes%20not%20just%20from%20one%20microtubule%20to%20the%20next%20but%20from%20one%20nerve%20cell%20to%20the%20next,%20across%20large%20areas%20of%20the%20brain.%20We%20need%20some%20kind%20of%20coherent%20activity%20of%20a%20quantum%20nature%20which%20is%20weakly%20coupled%20to%20the%20computational%20activity%20that%20Hameroff%20argues%20is%20taking%20place%20along%20the%20microtubules.">The following</a> is just one example of him doing so:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;For my picture, I need this quantum-level activity in the microtubules; the activity has to be a large-scale thing that goes not just from one microtubule to the next but from one nerve cell to the next, across large areas of the brain. We need some kind of coherent activity of a quantum nature which is weakly coupled to the computational activity that Hameroff argues is taking place along the microtubules.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>So Penrose acknowledges the need to tie the quantum scale to the (to use Penrose&#8217;s own term) &#8220;large-scale&#8221;. Basically (as with Dennett&#8217;s car/watch), there are indeed quantum effects/events/conditions in microtubules&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;as there are in everything else. So how can we tie these microtubular quantum phenomena to the large-scale? That is, how can we tie them to nerves and indeed to &#8220;one nerve cell to the next, across larges areas of that brain&#8221;? In a sense, if quantum effects/events/conditions are happening at the level of microtubules, then (as stated) they must also be happening at the level of nerve cells and indeed across large areas of the brain. But, again, are these nerve cells or large areas of the brain in the same position as Dennett&#8217;s car/watch? (The one obvious difference is that the former are biological and the latter aren&#8217;t.)</p><p>In the quote above (at the least), Penrose doesn&#8217;t offer us an answer to these questions. The questions are simply raised. To use Penrose&#8217;s <a href="https://www.edge.org/documents/ThirdCulture/v-Ch.14.html">own words</a>:</p><blockquote><p><em>&#8220;We need some kind of coherent activity of a quantum nature which is weakly coupled to the computational activity that [Stuart] Hameroff argues is taking place along the microtubules.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote><p>In basic terms, the quantum effects/events/conditions which occur in individual microtubules need to be &#8220;coupled&#8221; with the quantum effects in<em> other</em> microtubules. This coupling, according to Penrose, is achieved through &#8220;quantum coherence&#8221; and &#8220;quantum superpositioning&#8221;. Clearly these ideas take us beyond neuroscience.</p><p>So isn&#8217;t all this mere speculation?</p><p>Whatever the case is, Penrose&#8217;s positions will require both quantum theory and neurobiological detail to stand their ground. That is, the quantum leap from the neurobiological quantum scale to the brain and mind (or consciousness) needs much quantum-theoretic, neurobiological and philosophical defence.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div>]]></content:encoded></item><item><title><![CDATA[Deleuze and Guattari as Rousseauian Romantics]]></title><description><![CDATA[It is argued that Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed in what is called &#8220;the noble savage&#8221;.]]></description><link>https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/deleuze-and-guattari-as-rousseauian</link><guid isPermaLink="false">https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/p/deleuze-and-guattari-as-rousseauian</guid><dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Austin Murphy]]></dc:creator><pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2026 02:57:48 GMT</pubDate><enclosure url="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!HEb-!,w_256,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F207c2bb6-1471-4254-a9dd-30253890826d_1280x1280.png" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/><content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><hr></div><h4>It is argued that Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed in what is called &#8220;the noble savage&#8221;. The following essay doesn&#8217;t argue that Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari also believed that all schizophrenics were &#8220;savages&#8221;. However, it does argue that they believed that all schizophrenics were (in a strong sense) <em><strong>noble</strong></em>. This romantic view of schizophrenics is largely the result of Deleuze and Guattari&#8217;s over-indulgence in theory and abstraction, as well as the rhetorical and poetical nature of their writings.</h4><div class="captioned-image-container"><figure><a class="image-link image2 is-viewable-img" target="_blank" href="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png" data-component-name="Image2ToDOM"><div class="image2-inset"><picture><source type="image/webp" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_webp, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 1456w" sizes="100vw"><img src="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!,w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png" width="256" height="334" data-attrs="{&quot;src&quot;:&quot;https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png&quot;,&quot;srcNoWatermark&quot;:null,&quot;fullscreen&quot;:null,&quot;imageSize&quot;:null,&quot;height&quot;:334,&quot;width&quot;:256,&quot;resizeWidth&quot;:null,&quot;bytes&quot;:null,&quot;alt&quot;:null,&quot;title&quot;:null,&quot;type&quot;:null,&quot;href&quot;:null,&quot;belowTheFold&quot;:false,&quot;topImage&quot;:true,&quot;internalRedirect&quot;:null,&quot;isProcessing&quot;:false,&quot;align&quot;:null,&quot;offset&quot;:false}" class="sizing-normal" alt="" srcset="/__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_424, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 424w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_848, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 848w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1272, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 1272w, /__u/substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!4_We!, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/w_1456, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/c_limit, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/f_auto, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/q_auto:good, /__u/paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F476547f2-50bd-446f-9246-bdd4ac2ce7be_256x334.png 1456w" sizes="100vw" fetchpriority="high"></picture><div class="image-link-expand"><div class="pencraft pc-display-flex pc-gap-8 pc-reset"><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container restack-image"><svg aria-hidden="true" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 20 20" fill="none" stroke-width="1.5" stroke="var(--color-fg-primary)" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><g><path d="M2.53001 7.81595C3.49179 4.73911 6.43281 2.5 9.91173 2.5C13.1684 2.5 15.9537 4.46214 17.0852 7.23684L17.6179 8.67647M17.6179 8.67647L18.5002 4.26471M17.6179 8.67647L13.6473 6.91176M17.4995 12.1841C16.5378 15.2609 13.5967 17.5 10.1178 17.5C6.86118 17.5 4.07589 15.5379 2.94432 12.7632L2.41165 11.3235M2.41165 11.3235L1.5293 15.7353M2.41165 11.3235L6.38224 13.0882"></path></g></svg></button><button tabindex="0" type="button" class="pencraft pc-reset pencraft icon-container view-image"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="20" height="20" viewBox="0 0 24 24" fill="none" stroke="currentColor" stroke-width="2" stroke-linecap="round" stroke-linejoin="round" class="lucide lucide-maximize2 lucide-maximize-2"><polyline points="15 3 21 3 21 9"></polyline><polyline points="9 21 3 21 3 15"></polyline><line x1="21" x2="14" y1="3" y2="10"></line><line x1="3" x2="10" y1="21" y2="14"></line></svg></button></div></div></div></a><figcaption class="image-caption"><strong>Wiki Commons. Source <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Madness_Network_News.png">here</a>.</strong></figcaption></figure></div><div><hr></div><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;[Man in the state of nature] [ ] his faculties are so exercised and developed, his ideas so extended, his feelings so ennobled, and his whole soul so uplifted.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>&#8212; <strong>Jean-Jacque Rousseau, </strong><em>The Social Contract</em></p><div class="pullquote"><p><em>&#8220;Men in a state of nature [ ] His soul, which nothing disturbs, is wholly wrapped up in the feeling of its present existence, without any idea of the future.&#8221;</em></p></div><p>&#8212; <strong>Rousseau, </strong><em>Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality Among Men</em></p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.</p></div><form class="subscription-widget-subscribe"><input type="email" class="email-input" name="email" placeholder="Type your email&#8230;" tabindex="-1"><input type="submit" class="button primary" value="Subscribe"><div class="fake-input-wrapper"><div class="fake-input"></div><div class="fake-button"></div></div></form></div></div><div><hr></div><p><strong>Note:</strong> The single name Deleuze, instead of Deleuze and Guattari, will be used in this essay in order to save space and time. See my <a href="https://medium.com/@paulaustinmurphy2000/according-to-deleuze-and-guattari-capitalism-causes-schizophrenia-7f1260c8a66a">&#8216;According to Deleuze and Guattari, Capitalism Causes Schizophrenia&#8217;</a>.</p><div><hr></div><h3>Deleuze and Guattari as Rousseauian Romantics</h3><p>The argument in this essay is that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Gilles+Deleuze&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMmw2LKLqKj9WAN-mNliFQa1JKvXQ%3A1751525241838&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=eSdmaJHFMa2thbIPu9SFoAk&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY1icX_Cd973yr7qse4OVWV1flt_HnC&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjR5en-i6COAxWtVkEAHTtqAZQQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Gilles+Deleuze&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5HaWxsZXMgRGVsZXV6ZTIKECMYgAQYJxiKBTIFEC4YgAQyCxAuGIAEGJECGIoFMgsQABiABBiRAhiKBTIFEC4YgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABEiSCVAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAF5oAF5qgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKGAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHyxSyBwMwLjG4B4YBwgcDMy0xyAcL&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Gilles Deleuze</a> and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Felix+Guattari&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPxvw8jRQC981OxLYY8eLnXDPLalA%3A1751525274204&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=midmaNHfCu6mhbIPyJuWoA0&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY1qhBNZYVe79RlG1Ld0RgFbNUbM2xK&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjRlKGOjKCOAxVuU0EAHciNBdQQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Felix+Guattari&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5GZWxpeCBHdWF0dGFyaTIKECMYgAQYJxiKBTIKEC4YgAQYQxiKBTIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESKQJUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAYMBoAGDAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACkgGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB4gLsgcDMC4xuAeSAcIHAzMtMcgHDA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Felix Guattari</a> consistently romanticised schizophrenics and the condition of schizophrenia. Indeed, this romantic element of the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22anti-psychiatry+movement%22&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMz6bl6SHVxXSgqHBr8iw9Bw53mTA%3A1751525366791&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9idmaJXmLqLqhbIP-_i-qQw&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY2Bh63g29Uw8E5xRZrs1J9w_70SgQJ&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiVubS6jKCOAxUidUEAHXu8L8UQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22anti-psychiatry+movement%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhoiYW50aS1wc3ljaGlhdHJ5IG1vdmVtZW50IjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSIULUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAW6gAW6qAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoEBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeFCLIHAzAuMbgHgQHCBwMzLTHIBw8&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">anti-psychiatry movement</a> (which predated Deleuze&#8217;s and Guattari&#8217;s writings) had a large impact of psychiatrists, the arts, politics, and even on writers like <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Ken+Kesey&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifN9qxeSue2EE7s4HVFids-6YHUjMA%3A1751539679676&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=319maOjAJ7GkhbIPh9itkQ4&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZt70fhdXBEMwZYpX8egOpk7OzeGh8s&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiorKnjwaCOAxUxUkEAHQdsK-IQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Ken+Kesey&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IglLZW4gS2VzZXkyBBAjGCcyBBAjGCcyChAuGIAEGEMYigUyBRAuGIAEMgoQLhiABBhDGIoFMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIqghQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBogGgAaIBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKvAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHqRGyBwMwLjG4B68BwgcDMy0xyAcK&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Ken Kesey</a><strong> </strong>and his novel<strong> </strong><em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=One+Flew+Over+the+Cuckoo%27s+Nest&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNQNdfx4n6677IBtBrcGRGe6H5iig%3A1751539640232&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=uF9maNj3C-C2hbIPiJL_gAU&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZtyLhK0kLs3sjd2GfBtNkqR2Jcjxei&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjYs8HQwaCOAxVgW0EAHQjJH1AQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=One+Flew+Over+the+Cuckoo%27s+Nest&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ih9PbmUgRmxldyBPdmVyIHRoZSBDdWNrb28ncyBOZXN0MgsQLhiABBixAxjUAjILEC4YgAQYsQMY1AIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABEjpClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGBAaABgQGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAo8BmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfzD7IHAzAuMbgHjwHCBwMzLTHIBws&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">One Flew Over the Cuckoo&#8217;s Nest</a></em>. (Although it can be said that Ken Kesey influenced this movement, rather than the other way around.)</p><p>Deleuze himself was tapping into a (mainly French) tradition that went back to <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Jean-Jacques+Rousseau&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM_YIs341kdenpYW_dfNQ_tYPJIOw%3A1751525998018&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=bSpmaP3XPOfXhbIP38L7sAs&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY4fsqcvd6I-cmN9tlrluco3iexuW15&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi9wrPnjqCOAxXna0EAHV_hHrYQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Jean-Jacques+Rousseau&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhVKZWFuLUphY3F1ZXMgUm91c3NlYXUyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyChAAGIAEGBQYhwJIsGRQAFjFT3AAeACQAQCYAYABoAHxAqoBAzIuMrgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCBKACkQPCAgcQLhiABBgKwgIHEAAYgAQYCsICBhAAGAcYHpgDAJIHAzIuMqAH5jiyBwMyLjK4B5EDwgcFMi0zLjHIBx0&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Jean-Jacques Rousseau</a>.</p><p>Now consider <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22contact+with+the+profound+life+of+all+forms+or+all+types+of+beings%2C+who+is+responsible+for+even+the+stars+and+animal+life%2C+and+who+ceaselessly+plus+an+organ-machine+into+an+energy-machine%2C+a+tree+into+his+body%2C+a+breast+into+his+mouth%2C+the+sun+into+his+asshole%22.&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifP0hoSEEtTDNW6zZZg2SM8SXDh50A%3A1751524295532&amp;ei=xyNmaJ6hIMixhbIP0JGckQc&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjeoM27iKCOAxXIWEEAHdAIJ3IQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22contact+with+the+profound+life+of+all+forms+or+all+types+of+beings%2C+who+is+responsible+for+even+the+stars+and+animal+life%2C+and+who+ceaselessly+plus+an+organ-machine+into+an+energy-machine%2C+a+tree+into+his+body%2C+a+breast+into+his+mouth%2C+the+sun+into+his+asshole%22.&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAikQJEZWxldXplIC0gImNvbnRhY3Qgd2l0aCB0aGUgcHJvZm91bmQgbGlmZSBvZiBhbGwgZm9ybXMgb3IgYWxsIHR5cGVzIG9mIGJlaW5ncywgd2hvIGlzIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciBldmVuIHRoZSBzdGFycyBhbmQgYW5pbWFsIGxpZmUsIGFuZCB3aG8gY2Vhc2VsZXNzbHkgcGx1cyBhbiBvcmdhbi1tYWNoaW5lIGludG8gYW4gZW5lcmd5LW1hY2hpbmUsIGEgdHJlZSBpbnRvIGhpcyBib2R5LCBhIGJyZWFzdCBpbnRvIGhpcyBtb3V0aCwgdGhlIHN1biBpbnRvIGhpcyBhc3Nob2xlIi5IAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">this poetic passage</a> from Deleuze:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;[C]ontact with the profound life of all forms or all types of beings, who is responsible for even the stars and animal life, and who ceaselessly plugs an organ-machine into an energy-machine, a tree into his body, a breast into his mouth, the sun into his asshole.&#8221;</p></div><p>Great poetry!</p><p>Is it more than that?</p><p><em>Should</em> it be more than poetry?</p><p>Did many (or any) psychiatrists, schizophrenics, concerned citizens, etc. plumb the depths of Deleuze&#8217;s words looking for strategic and hands-on advice when it came to schizophrenia and schizophrenics? Did political activists translate his ideas into concrete political strategies and goals?</p><p>Now for <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22As+for+the+schizo%2C+continually+wandering+about%2C+migrating+here%2C+there%2C+and+everywhere+as+best+he+can%2C+he+plunges+further+and+further+into+the+realm+of+deterritorialization%E2%80%A6%22&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMctr6lasoznEyJirpa7NaVFcdGPg%3A1751525451577&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=SyhmaIDnIbqdhbIPsMfFkQ4&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY2W5iNa4M4i0Z9CggZegAs-y1Zudqu&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjAuOvijKCOAxW6TkEAHbBjMeIQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22As+for+the+schizo%2C+continually+wandering+about%2C+migrating+here%2C+there%2C+and+everywhere+as+best+he+can%2C+he+plunges+further+and+further+into+the+realm+of+deterritorialization%E2%80%A6%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IrABIkFzIGZvciB0aGUgc2NoaXpvLCBjb250aW51YWxseSB3YW5kZXJpbmcgYWJvdXQsIG1pZ3JhdGluZyBoZXJlLCB0aGVyZSwgYW5kIGV2ZXJ5d2hlcmUgYXMgYmVzdCBoZSBjYW4sIGhlIHBsdW5nZXMgZnVydGhlciBhbmQgZnVydGhlciBpbnRvIHRoZSByZWFsbSBvZiBkZXRlcnJpdG9yaWFsaXphdGlvbuKApiJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">another passage</a> from Deleuze:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;As for the schizo, continually wandering about, migrating here, there, and everywhere as best he can, he plunges further and further into the realm of deterritorialization.&#8221;</p></div><p>Deleuze then wondered whether <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22these+peregrinations+are+the+schizo%27s+own+particular+way+of+discovering+the+earth%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPdIteYuWxoDlhSKfqmrkkwR8FnlQ%3A1751431971915&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=I7tkaJjKNISohbIPkYOp6A0&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTJM7BdH8rRxo0bItcBbbn-7rZW40pB&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjY55_EsJ2OAxUEVEEAHZFBCt0Q4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22these+peregrinations+are+the+schizo%27s+own+particular+way+of+discovering+the+earth%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IlMidGhlc2UgcGVyZWdyaW5hdGlvbnMgYXJlIHRoZSBzY2hpem8ncyBvd24gcGFydGljdWxhciB3YXkgb2YgZGlzY292ZXJpbmcgdGhlIGVhcnRoIkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;these peregrinations are the schizo&#8217;s own particular way of discovering the earth&#8221;</a>.</p><p>To Deleuze, <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=deterritorialization&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOQpX29iVZXuwoiDEzSwMXfry522Q%3A1751464087341&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=lzhlaOnIEtj_p84PysDtgAU&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVGp4hiSh6n4tB5YjG227w3YTyUPB5r&amp;ved=0ahUKEwip8IqWqJ6OAxXY_8kDHUpgG1AQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=deterritorialization&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRkZXRlcnJpdG9yaWFsaXphdGlvbjIKECMYgAQYJxiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyChAAGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESIIIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAccBoAHHAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaAC0QGYAwCSBwMyLTGgB6cHsgcDMi0xuAfRAcIHAzMtMcgHCA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">deterritorialization</a></em> is a good thing, no matter what form it takes.</p><p>The schizophrenic captures (or even <em>knows</em>) what Deleuze called <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=what+did+Deleuze+mean+by+%22the+real%22%3F&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifO_B8626s64uK_AkUDeXEoo0lnkEw%3A1751540704353&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=4GNmaJ2aE4zOhbIP2fbwCA&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZx8CANjfiMJcCHIwLz7SY3oG7iDfCh&amp;ved=0ahUKEwidivbLxaCOAxUMZ0EAHVk7HAEQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=what+did+Deleuze+mean+by+%22the+real%22%3F&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiR3aGF0IGRpZCBEZWxldXplIG1lYW4gYnkgInRoZSByZWFsIj8yBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSMl2UABYgXFwAXgAkAEAmAGmAaAB1hqqAQQyOC45uAEDyAEA-AEBmAImoAKbHMICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgQQIxgnwgIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBcICEBAAGIAEGLEDGEMYgwEYigXCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIKEC4YgAQYQxiKBcICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICBxAAGIAEGArCAgQQABgDwgIFEC4YgATCAgcQLhiABBgKwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAggQABiABBiiBMICCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFwgIFEAAY7wXCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAkgcFMjYuMTKgB-SZArIHBTI1LjEyuAeWHMIHCDEuNi4zMC4xyAepAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;the Real&#8221;</a>.</p><p>What is <em>the real</em>?</p><p><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22the+demoniacal%27+element+in+nature+or+within+the+heart+of+the+earth%22+alongside+%22the+historical+process+of+social+production%22.&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifP43FCsZXDsSLwFX6NVY_3iuJPbYw%3A1751525520070&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=kChmaPbiApGvhbIPi5bngQk&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY2oBQXKnO89w6Gz_Vz1NS1MITSEGeD&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj26r-DjaCOAxWRV0EAHQvLOZAQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22the+demoniacal%27+element+in+nature+or+within+the+heart+of+the+earth%22+alongside+%22the+historical+process+of+social+production%22.&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6In0idGhlIGRlbW9uaWFjYWwnIGVsZW1lbnQgaW4gbmF0dXJlIG9yIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgaGVhcnQgb2YgdGhlIGVhcnRoIiBhbG9uZ3NpZGUgInRoZSBoaXN0b3JpY2FsIHByb2Nlc3Mgb2Ygc29jaWFsIHByb2R1Y3Rpb24iLkgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">This</a>:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;&#8216;[T]he demoniacal element in nature or within the heart of the earth [alongside] the historical process of social production.&#8221;</p></div><p>It&#8217;s worth noting here that Deleuze was <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+and+spinoza&amp;sca_esv=482899ddda3e995a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOwNXWpgGWmRpBrgfnnjR7glA58UA%3A1751538583367&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=l1tmaOS1FIiwhbIPkpDX0Qo&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZpp_ZXHxdt1irQDjTEdPDbvRjyHZ6r&amp;ved=0ahUKEwik3cfYvaCOAxUIWEEAHRLINaoQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+and+spinoza&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">influenced by Spinoza&#8217;s monism</a>. I doubt that the latter had much to say about the &#8220;demoniacal&#8221;. Yet, in a strong sense, people like <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=de+sade&amp;sca_esv=482899ddda3e995a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNEsfU29sDiWsMrJYyGY5807zwpMQ%3A1751539103607&amp;ei=n11maPnmJKCChbIPnsrHqQw&amp;gs_ssp=eJzj4tDP1TcwSsupMmD0Yk9JVShOTEkFADVFBZQ&amp;oq=De+Sade&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiB0RlIFNhZGUqAggAMgsQLhiABBiRAhiKBTILEAAYgAQYkQIYigUyBRAuGIAEMggQLhiABBjUAjIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIaEC4YgAQYkQIYigUYlwUY3AQY3gQY3wTYAQFIny5QnAVY-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-XnAbIHAzEuN7gH3AfCBwUyLTQuOMgHZQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Marquis de Sade</a>, Nietzsche and Foucault did. Indeed, to all these writers, violence and the love of power and violence were taken to be part of nature&#8217;s <em>demoniacal </em>(though that word wasn&#8217;t used) side. (This is something that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Foucault+on+%22revolutionary+violence%22&amp;sca_esv=482899ddda3e995a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM6_goKbd_nxb7gaXMzuWc0P8XCDQ%3A1751538867414&amp;ei=s1xmaKOBGc6rhbIPo8vl6Q4&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjjpoLgvqCOAxXOVUEAHaNlOe0Q4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Foucault+on+%22revolutionary+violence%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJEZvdWNhdWx0IG9uICJyZXZvbHV0aW9uYXJ5IHZpb2xlbmNlIjIFECEYnwVI2U1QkAdYr0ZwAXgAkAEAmAHKAaABjQ-qAQYxMC42LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhGgAsEOwgIOEAAYgAQYsAMYhgMYigXCAgsQABiABBiwAxiiBMICCxAAGLADGKIEGIkFwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgUQABjvBZgDAIgGAZAGBZIHBTguOC4xoAfzLbIHBTcuOC4xuAewDsIHCDAuMy4xMy4xyAdM&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Foucault expressly stated in his words on &#8220;revolutionary violence&#8221;</a>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;though this is disputed - and his <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Foucault+on+sadomasochism&amp;sca_esv=482899ddda3e995a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNFI3IsoEpjoxA43NX6Ffrh3h-nbQ%3A1751538933504&amp;ei=9VxmaJi9Hqu7hbIPmqHqmA0&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjYi8T_vqCOAxWrXUEAHZqQGtMQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Foucault+on+sadomasochism&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGUZvdWNhdWx0IG9uIHNhZG9tYXNvY2hpc21Iy_8BUPoFWIvrAXAEeACQAQCYAZcBoAG8E6oBBDcuMTa4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgugApEHwgIOEAAYgAQYsAMYhgMYigXCAgsQABiABBiwAxiiBMICBBAjGCfCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICCxAuGIAEGJECGIoFwgIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBcICBRAAGIAEwgIFEC4YgATCAgYQABgWGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIFEAAY7wXCAgUQIRigAZgDAIgGAZAGApIHAzUuNqAH_z6yBwMyLja4B_4GwgcHMC4zLjYuMsgHOw&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">penchant for sadomasochism</a>.)</p><p>Thus, much of this debate was dressed in terms of &#8220;power&#8221; having an impact on mental health. And, of course, capitalism incorporates power. The &#8220; bosses&#8221; have power, and those who support them have power too. Of course, it&#8217;s all dependent on what&#8217;s meant by &#8220;power&#8221;, and how that explains the link between capitalism and mental health (or schizophrenia).</p><p>There comes a point at which power is interpreted so broadly that there&#8217;s power literally everywhere. That means there are <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22power+relations%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMQ6RD5cmQlSTjZ_ezW__THEbi4Fg%3A1751462545886&amp;ei=kTJlaObtNayDhbIP1ZSoiQM&amp;ved=0ahUKEwim-om3op6OAxWsQUEAHVUKKjEQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22power+relations%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiESJwb3dlciByZWxhdGlvbnMiMgsQABiABBiRAhiKBTILEAAYgAQYkQIYigUyCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgsQABiABBiRAhiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEiAJlC0BlihG3ABeAGQAQCYAa0BoAGiBKoBAzMuMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCBqAC0ATCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIGEAAYBxgemAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDNC4yoAe6H7IHAzMuMrgHxgTCBwMyLTbIByg&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;power relations&#8221;</a> between left-wing professors and their students, the leaders of revolutionary groups/parties and their &#8220;members&#8221;, and even between &#8220;radical journals&#8221; and those people who read them. In fact, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Michel+Foucault&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOiqmeDA8w_ON_syRKE0TdJD-AXfg%3A1751462632459&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=6DJlaI-UGr2NhbIP7PbF4Qc&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVA-KonmrCy9cTDGSaO1tOXlY_Ct_Kf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiPqKzgop6OAxW9RkEAHWx7MXwQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Michel+Foucault&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig9NaWNoZWwgRm91Y2F1bHQyBBAjGCcyDhAuGIAEGJECGLEDGIoFMgsQABiABBiRAhiKBTILEC4YgAQYkQIYigUyCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFMgsQABiABBiRAhiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIFEAAYgARIjAlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBc6ABc6oBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACfpgDAJIHAzAuMaAHmA6yBwMwLjG4B37CBwMzLTHIBwg&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Michel Foucault</a>&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;for one&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;did believe that power is everywhere, and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Michel+Foucault+on+communist+parties&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPIZWL7H4NNxcf5omtRzgV6rsa6bg%3A1751462635880&amp;ei=6zJlaNHANZ62hbIPxOiuqAo&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiR4v7hop6OAxUeW0EAHUS0C6UQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Michel+Foucault+on+communist+parties&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJE1pY2hlbCBGb3VjYXVsdCBvbiBjb21tdW5pc3QgcGFydGllczIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSNw8UI4HWIUvcAF4AZABAJgBf6ABhw-qAQQxOC4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIUoALCDsICBxAjGLADGCfCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgINEAAYgAQYsAMYQxiKBcICDhAAGLADGOQCGNYE2AEBwgITEC4YgAQYsAMYQxjIAxiKBdgBAcICBBAjGCfCAgoQABiABBhDGIoFwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICBRAuGIAEwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICCxAuGIAEGJECGIoFwgIGEAAYFhgewgILEAAYgAQYhgMYigXCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIHECEYoAEYCpgDAIgGAZAGE7oGBggBEAEYCZIHBDE2LjSgB5F_sgcEMTUuNLgHsw7CBwcwLjUuOS42yAd-&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">he particularly noted it</a> in the French Communist Party (PCF).</p><p>Here&#8217;s <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22A+schizophrenic+out+for+a+walk+is+a+better+model+than+a+neurotic+lying+on+the+analyst%27s+coach.+A+breath+of+fresh+air%2C+a+relationship+with+the+outside%C2%A0world.%22&amp;sca_esv=ca1b58a9e705a903&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNxWw_0k6csBMglcEj2v2Mdcr8teQ%3A1751525621379&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=9ShmaNjCFf2chbIPhc3G4Ak&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGY3BXLshchV7eK-Co0bxtTjo1vboLqX&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiYkeezjaCOAxV9TkEAHYWmEZwQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22A+schizophrenic+out+for+a+walk+is+a+better+model+than+a+neurotic+lying+on+the+analyst%27s+coach.+A+breath+of+fresh+air%2C+a+relationship+with+the+outside%C2%A0world.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ip8BIkEgc2NoaXpvcGhyZW5pYyBvdXQgZm9yIGEgd2FsayBpcyBhIGJldHRlciBtb2RlbCB0aGFuIGEgbmV1cm90aWMgbHlpbmcgb24gdGhlIGFuYWx5c3QncyBjb2FjaC4gQSBicmVhdGggb2YgZnJlc2ggYWlyLCBhIHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCB3aXRoIHRoZSBvdXRzaWRlwqB3b3JsZC4iSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">another passage</a> from Deleuze:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;A schizophrenic out for a walk is a better model than a neurotic lying on the analyst&#8217;s couch. A breath of fresh air, a relationship with the outside world.&#8221;</p></div><p>On the superficial surface, that romantic vision seems fair enough. But it&#8217;s simplistic in that in suggests (or even states) that all schizophrenics like <em>walks in the fresh air</em>, and that they all become <em>neurotics</em> when on the <em>analyst&#8217;s couch</em> or when institutionalised.</p><p>In any case, Deleuze meant a model of a <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22desiring-machine%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifO3Rj8Fofc3ErNAriWZVUT8cnJErQ%3A1751463921994&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=8TdlaJCaOfXhp84PkOrmyQQ&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVGAT_wDRBNmhw8d0U4k_Sg5iWg73VN&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjQ1p3Hp56OAxX18MkDHRC1OUkQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22desiring-machine%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhIiZGVzaXJpbmctbWFjaGluZSIyBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBRAAGO8FSN0JUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAb4BoAG-AaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACxgGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB9YCsgcDMC4xuAfGAcIHAzItMcgHBQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;desiring-machine&#8221;</a>.</p><p>What did he mean by the word &#8220;machine&#8221;?</p><p>Deleuze believed that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Everything+is+a+machine%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNTlO7PoUxEQjUbo1X5hpHzR6nzig%3A1751463966743&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=HjhlaPHhKtvlwN4PkIvzsQ0&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVGLjuv8VO0yUoe4z6xM8X5yN36OMtm&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjx6Mncp56OAxXbMtAFHZDFPNYQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Everything+is+a+machine%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhkiRXZlcnl0aGluZyBpcyBhIG1hY2hpbmUiMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB5IiglQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBxwGgAccBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoALSAZgDAJIHAzItMaAHhAayBwMyLTG4B9IBwgcDMy0xyAcI&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;[e]verything is a machine&#8221;</a>. Indeed, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22The+breast+is+a+machine+that+produces+milk%2C+and+the+mouth+a+machine+coupled+to+it.%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPLTP44L3r7KO-yvJfWcLnqtXVrRg%3A1751464021035&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=VDhlaIbTPMTIp84P8fDSyAQ&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVGZQdlb5l85cuLgqgcG3rJ877--_vw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGzbv2p56OAxVE5MkDHXG4FEkQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22The+breast+is+a+machine+that+produces+milk%2C+and+the+mouth+a+machine+coupled+to+it.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IlQiVGhlIGJyZWFzdCBpcyBhIG1hY2hpbmUgdGhhdCBwcm9kdWNlcyBtaWxrLCBhbmQgdGhlIG1vdXRoIGEgbWFjaGluZSBjb3VwbGVkIHRvIGl0LiJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;the breast is a machine that produces milk, and the mouth a machine coupled to it&#8221;</a>. He also talks of the &#8220;eating-machine&#8221; and &#8220;anal machine&#8221;</p><p>Basically, a desiring-machine is a machine which desires. And desires should never be repressed. [Readers should refer back to the words on de Sade, Nietzsche and Foucault.) Relevantly, a schizophrenic is repressed when &#8220;found in mental institutions&#8221; in which he or she is <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22a+limp+rag+forced+into+autistic+behaviour%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNwmE1qD0QdOyIZWuGsJJ_XQ64Oug%3A1751432036428&amp;ei=ZLtkaIb2GbevhbIP4PPYmQ8&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiGuITjsJ2OAxW3V0EAHeA5NvMQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22a+limp+rag+forced+into+autistic+behaviour%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiNURlbGV1emUgLSAiYSBsaW1wIHJhZyBmb3JjZWQgaW50byBhdXRpc3RpYyBiZWhhdmlvdXIiSNEpULYIWOYicAF4AJABAJgBhQGgAZ0HqgEDOC4yuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAiAYBkgcAoAfVCbIHALgHAMIHAMgHAA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;a limp rag forced into autistic behaviour&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Deleuze also quoted <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Karl+Jaspers&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifP8jYReSbdp12huPVeFXHbOzTMHSw%3A1751460881861&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=ESxlaMaOLoK7hbIPiN_QqQ8&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGU6ISOFXwkVtH0_SyFeHGckh07oKBny&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiG28ednJ6OAxWCXUEAHYgvNPUQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Karl+Jaspers&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxLYXJsIEphc3BlcnMyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEC4YgAQyBRAAGIAEMgsQLhiABBjHARivATIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAESKgYUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAXigAXiqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgAoUBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAfhELIHAzAuMbgHhQHCBwMzLTHIBwo&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Karl Jaspers</a> (in a note) talking about &#8220;madness in our time&#8221;. Jaspers <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22%27a+state+of+total+sincerity%2C+in+areas+where+in+less+chaotic+times+one+would+have+been+capable+of+honest+experience+and+expression+without%C2%A0it%22.&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMLArezHZMZBnPgsr3vik4Qhj-LnQ%3A1751431355980&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=u7hkaM3lOY2dhbIPx9GogQk&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTGy-UAHpnfwlyhXo7Z2uHFrBeIj6Yz&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiNr8eerp2OAxWNTkEAHccoKpAQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22%27a+state+of+total+sincerity%2C+in+areas+where+in+less+chaotic+times+one+would+have+been+capable+of+honest+experience+and+expression+without%C2%A0it%22.&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IpABIidhIHN0YXRlIG9mIHRvdGFsIHNpbmNlcml0eSwgaW4gYXJlYXMgd2hlcmUgaW4gbGVzcyBjaGFvdGljIHRpbWVzIG9uZSB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gY2FwYWJsZSBvZiBob25lc3QgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSBhbmQgZXhwcmVzc2lvbiB3aXRob3V0wqBpdCIuSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">wrote that madness is</a></p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;&#8216;a state of total sincerity, in areas where in less chaotic times one would have been capable of honest experience and expression without it&#8221;.</p></div><p>So here we have the madman capturing <em>the Real</em>, or at least being <em>totally sincere</em>.</p><p>Earlier in another note, Deleuze had also quoted Henry Miller&#8217;s <em>Tropic of Cancer</em> in which one character states that his <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22guts+spilled+out+in+a+grand+schizophrenic+rush%2C+and+evacuation+that+leaves+me+face+to+face+with+the+Absolute%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNoxSlzKHKi0y8h0_4wzM5bfCmvYQ%3A1751431599602&amp;ei=r7lkaOjGJNekhbIPv7-WoAs&amp;ved=0ahUKEwio2t6Sr52OAxVXUkEAHb-fBbQQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22guts+spilled+out+in+a+grand+schizophrenic+rush%2C+and+evacuation+that+leaves+me+face+to+face+with+the+Absolute%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAieERlbGV1emUgLSAiZ3V0cyBzcGlsbGVkIG91dCBpbiBhIGdyYW5kIHNjaGl6b3BocmVuaWMgcnVzaCwgYW5kIGV2YWN1YXRpb24gdGhhdCBsZWF2ZXMgbWUgZmFjZSB0byBmYWNlIHdpdGggdGhlIEFic29sdXRlIkgAUABYAHAAeAGQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;guts spilled out in a grand schizophrenic rush, an evacuation that leaves me face to face with the Absolute&#8221;</a>.</p><h3>The Ego and the I</h3><p>The following is Deleuze on the &#8220;schizo&#8221;:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;There are those who will maintain that the schizo is incapable of uttering the word *I*, and that we must restore his ability to pronounce this hallowed word. All of which the schizo sum up saying: they&#8217;re fucking me over again. &#8216;I won&#8217;t say *I* any more, I&#8217;ll never utter the word again; it&#8217;s just too damn stupid. Every time I hear it, I&#8217;ll use the third person instead, if I happen to remember to. If it amuses them. And it won&#8217;t make one bit of difference.&#8217;&#8221;</p></div><p>This seems to be tapping into the New Age, &#8220;spiritual&#8221;, etc. view about <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22erasing+the+ego%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM3e6M1n8hLvmLvd-fjU7UYkULqWQ%3A1751461455037&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Ti5laJ2nN-uqhbIP5N7x2QQ&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGU8XwJ-uN_BHoWArddoz3CR2tLcR7ls&amp;ved=0ahUKEwidhu6unp6OAxVrVUEAHWRvPEsQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22erasing+the+ego%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhEiZXJhc2luZyB0aGUgZWdvIjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wVIqwlQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBhgGgAYYBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKRAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHjAWyBwMwLjG4B5EBwgcDMi0xyAcH&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;erasing the ego&#8221;</a>, I or whatnot, which was popular in the 1960s and after.</p><p>According to Deleuze, it&#8217;s not that the &#8220;schizo&#8221; can&#8217;t use the word &#8220;I&#8221;, or that he doesn&#8217;t understand its function. Instead, he simply believes it&#8217;s a stupid word, and it doesn&#8217;t serve a purpose for him&#8230; However, in the Samuel Beckett passage quoted by Deleuze, it serves at least one function. (It&#8217;s no wonder that Deleuze concentrates on a character in a novel by Beckett because he rarely mentions real patients and their real experiences.) The schizo says, &#8220;I won&#8217;t say I any more, I&#8217;ll never utter the word again [ ].&#8221; That&#8217;s right, the schizo uses the word &#8220;I&#8221; and &#8220;I&#8217;ll&#8221; in a first person way, and &#8220;I&#8221; as a reference to the pronoun.</p><p>Of course, all this largely depends how we cash out this word &#8220;I&#8221;. It can be cashed out in <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=David+Hume+on+the+I+or+self&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMDCy2n8s8V2IGUJEUnlhaC2AC63Q%3A1751463792864&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=cDdlaIqPMKDJp84PgKK3YA&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVFgOOMXAZbhzTjSWrcXVPDUmEozxF6&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiKh9OJp56OAxWg5MkDHQDRDQwQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=David+Hume+on+the+I+or+self&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Hume&#8217;s deflationary and technical sense</a>, etc., or it can be seen as a substitute for what Deleuze calls <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+on+%22the+ego%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMTuOgn6LMIXUIW0TizT9tt80yqjg%3A1751463837430&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=nTdlaMKfFvKHp84Po8eruA0&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVFrdTTblzbY_rXWq-j4LtHXXG636jw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiC4vOep56OAxXyw8kDHaPjCtcQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+on+%22the+ego%22&amp;gs_lp=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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;the ego&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Freud had a lot to say about &#8220;the ego&#8221; and what Deleuze called &#8220;daddy-mommy&#8221;. According to Deleuze, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22the+schizo+has+long+since+ceased+to+believe+in+it%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOiz0eyxQ7G5MbItXnoXmTNx-Yjug%3A1751432131275&amp;ei=w7tkaNfFEOvQhbIPy9i80QE&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiXs6GQsZ2OAxVraEEAHUssLxoQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22the+schizo+has+long+since+ceased+to+believe+in+it%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiPURlbGV1emUgLSAidGhlIHNjaGl6byBoYXMgbG9uZyBzaW5jZSBjZWFzZWQgdG8gYmVsaWV2ZSBpbiBpdCJI_yVQqghYoCBwAXgAkAEAmAFroAG6BqoBAzguMrgBA8gBAPgBAZgCB6AC-wTCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEmAMAiAYBkgcDNi4xoAeDGLIHAzYuMbgH-wTCBwUwLjEuNsgHHw&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;the schizo has long since ceased to believe in it&#8221;</a>. Instead, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22He+is+somewhere+else%2C+beyond+or+behind+or+below+these+problems%2C+rather+than+immersed+in+them%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPB2GrZnfAb5HcCPc7swtbFswuclg%3A1751432208450&amp;ei=ELxkaK6jG4PBhbIP687HkAM&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiu64e1sZ2OAxWDYEEAHWvnETIQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22He+is+somewhere+else%2C+beyond+or+behind+or+below+these+problems%2C+rather+than+immersed+in+them%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiaERlbGV1emUgLSAiSGUgaXMgc29tZXdoZXJlIGVsc2UsIGJleW9uZCBvciBiZWhpbmQgb3IgYmVsb3cgdGhlc2UgcHJvYmxlbXMsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIGltbWVyc2VkIGluIHRoZW0iSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;[h]e is somewhere else, beyond or behind or below these problems, rather than immersed in them&#8221;</a>.</p><h3>Freud the Capitalist</h3><p>Felix Guattari&#8217;s criticisms of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Sigmund+Freud&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPRKX8ig-NY1PaPosq-9s8QIx64qA%3A1751539803851&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=W2BmaPybMujPhbIP6Z244QY&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZua7oPav_gbNF0EzfyqSG4BuHX3XaK&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi8tcSewqCOAxXoZ0EAHekOLmwQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Sigmund+Freud&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig1TaWdtdW5kIEZyZXVkMhAQLhiABBixAxhDGIMBGIoFMgsQABiABBixAxiDATIIEAAYgAQYsQMyBBAAGAMyCxAuGIAEGMcBGK8BMgsQLhiABBjHARivATIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARIiQhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBogGgAaIBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKvAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHpQ2yBwMwLjG4B68BwgcDMy0xyAcK&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Sigmund Freud</a> can be seen as an infight between psychiatrists at a particular period in history, and in a particular set of places (i.e., mainly universities in France).</p><p>To put it simply, Deleuze and Guattari took Freud to be a (not his own words) <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22defender+of+capitalism%22&amp;sca_esv=4da7261d6af0beeb&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPCDaXu2JZj0iTEPaTS2RPJ9JIDFg%3A1751461756135&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=fC9laPHABP6lhbIP_IfLwQM&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGU9jBInXdXF7enc45vX5qM8ffLmO9s9&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjx7ru-n56OAxX-UkEAHfzDMjgQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22defender+of+capitalism%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhgiZGVmZW5kZXIgb2YgY2FwaXRhbGlzbSIyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSLIIUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAagBoAGoAaoBAzAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACtgGYAwCSBwMwLjGgB7sDsgcDMC4xuAe2AcIHAzMtMcgHCQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;defender of capitalism&#8221;</a>. The problem here is that according to many Marxists, if someone <em>isn&#8217;t</em> an explicit critic (or &#8220;enemy&#8221;) of capitalism, then that person (either implicitly or explicitly) must be a <em>defender of capitalis</em>m. Indeed, if someone isn&#8217;t a Marxist, then he/she (whether implicitly or explicitly) must be a defender of capitalism.</p><p>[Many of the criticisms of Freud also boil down to the Marxist idea that capitalism &#8220;invented&#8221; the <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=nuclear+family&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifP90ffObgY4q1vfNcnqMfAdEMgZMA%3A1751463446538&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=FjZlaL7ZHvu3wN4PxrqjkQY&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVEJqjEEPRFVT5ffZmPT-_LKbQm6U-F&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi-vMPkpZ6OAxX7G9AFHUbdKGIQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=nuclear+family&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ig5udWNsZWFyIGZhbWlseTIIEAAYgAQYsQMyCBAAGIAEGLEDMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAuGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI9TNQAFiZK3AAeACQAQCYAeQCoAH4FKoBCDAuMTEuMi4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIOoALBFcICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgQQIxgnwgILEC4YgAQYkQIYigXCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIREC4YgAQYsQMY0QMYgwEYxwHCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICCBAuGIAEGLEDwgIOEC4YgAQYsQMY0QMYxwHCAgsQLhiABBjHARivAZgDAJIHCDAuMTEuMi4xoAeSaLIHCDAuMTEuMi4xuAfBFcIHBjItMTMuMcgHPw&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;nuclear family&#8221;</a>. Think here of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Black+Lives+Matter&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPPMdBTD5FdG8n8C0mZZAEqPICA9A%3A1751463684593&amp;ei=BDdlaOn9I6mhptQP0cT7gAM&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjpj4fWpp6OAxWpkIkEHVHiHjAQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Black+Lives+Matter&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiEkJsYWNrIExpdmVzIE1hdHRlcjIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIOEAAYgAQYkQIYsQMYigUyCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFMgoQLhiABBhDGIoFMgoQABiABBhDGIoFMgoQABiABBhDGIoFMgoQABiABBhDGIoFMgoQABiABBhDGIoFMgoQABiABBhDGIoFSMILUABYqgNwAHgBkAEAmAHDAaAB4QKqAQMwLjK4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgKgAvICwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHApgDAJIHBTAuMS4xoAeBILIHBTAuMS4xuAfyAsIHBTItMS4xyAcP&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Black Lives Matter</a> in its early days, and <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Black+Lives+Matter+and+the+nuclear+family&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMSNktv64A3LtGdmCr2NXg2iXtwaw%3A1751463603780&amp;ei=szZlaM2xL6mU5OMP_uO3kQQ&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiN18Kvpp6OAxUpCnkGHf7xLUIQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Black+Lives+Matter+and+the+nuclear+family&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKUJsYWNrIExpdmVzIE1hdHRlciBhbmQgdGhlIG51Y2xlYXIgZmFtaWx5SK8aUPsHWPUVcAF4AJABAJgBvgGgAf0LqgEDMC45uAEDyAEA-AEBmAIBoAIHwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR5gDAIgGAZAGCJIHATGgB5YQsgcAuAcAwgcDMi0xyAcF&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">its criticism of the nuclear family</a>.]</p><p>In simple terms, Deleuze liked schizophrenics. Freud, on the other hand, <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Freud+%22doesn%27t+like+schizophrenics%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOOKp3ilZVi1pZZ06H7vi75CstX7Q%3A1751463052638&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=jDRlaK67JM-8p84P27z5kAg&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVCnMwqqL9jHLyXA21sRV69Sv17aLRL&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiusdmopJ6OAxVP3skDHVteHoIQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Freud+%22doesn%27t+like+schizophrenics%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiNGcmV1ZCAiZG9lc24ndCBsaWtlIHNjaGl6b3BocmVuaWNzIkjENVAAWJkmcAB4AJABAJgB9QGgAf8KqgEFMC40LjO4AQPIAQD4AQH4AQKYAgagArAJwgIEECMYJ8ICChAuGIAEGCcYigXCAgoQIxiABBgnGIoFwgILEC4YgAQYkQIYigXCAgoQABiABBhDGIoFwgIKEC4YgAQYQxiKBcICERAuGIAEGJECGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIOEC4YgAQYkQIY1AIYigXCAhAQABiABBixAxhDGIMBGIoFwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICEBAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGBQYhwLCAhEQABiABBiRAhixAxiDARiKBcICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIEEAAYA5gDAOIDBRIBMSBAkgcFMC4zLjOgB-ZlsgcFMC4zLjO4B7AJwgcFMi01LjHIByE&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;doesn&#8217;t like schizophrenics&#8221;</a>. He tended <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Freud+%22to+treat+them+more+or+less+as+animals%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOeBwRR1Qi3uS44BKcaMGDB_8U3xw%3A1751463106655&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=wjRlaPjjJbSbp84P9veH0Aw&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVC0mXQKd_UomLGYz3dgaRhtOFhyyZN&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4zLrCpJ6OAxW0zckDHfb7AcoQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Freud+%22to+treat+them+more+or+less+as+animals%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ii1GcmV1ZCAidG8gdHJlYXQgdGhlbSBtb3JlIG9yIGxlc3MgYXMgYW5pbWFscyIyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigAUijaVAAWKBPcAV4AJABAJgB8QKgAekWqgEHMC44LjUuMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCD6ACsBHCAgUQIRifBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIFEAAY7wWYAwCSBwc1LjQuNS4xoAeIK7IHBzAuNC41LjG4B5kRwgcGMC4xMS40yAco&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;to treat them more or less as animals&#8221;</a>. Deleuze <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+%22They+mistake+words+for+things+%5B+%5D+They+are+apathetic%2C+narcissistic%2C+cut+off+from+reality+%5B+%5D.%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMqK4UAYcHw9uzRBb6FtpJcYaWXYA%3A1751463168814&amp;ei=ADVlaPTGMaqX5OMPzrG6uAY&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0xo7gpJ6OAxWqC3kGHc6YDmcQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+%22They+mistake+words+for+things+%5B+%5D+They+are+apathetic%2C+narcissistic%2C+cut+off+from+reality+%5B+%5D.%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiaURlbGV1emUgLSAiVGhleSBtaXN0YWtlIHdvcmRzIGZvciB0aGluZ3MgWyBdIFRoZXkgYXJlIGFwYXRoZXRpYywgbmFyY2lzc2lzdGljLCBjdXQgb2ZmIGZyb20gcmVhbGl0eSBbIF0uIkgAUABYAHAAeAGQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">went on to say</a> more about Freud&#8217;s take on schizophrenics:</p><div class="pullquote"><p>&#8220;They mistake words for things [ ] They are apathetic, narcissistic, cut off from reality [ ].&#8221;</p></div><p>In terms of being &#8220;cut off from reality&#8221;, Deleuze believed that schizophrenics were more in tune with reality or <em>the Real</em>.</p><p>As for <em>mistaking words for things</em>, this could be a way of characterising (if slightly rhetorically) the philosophical mindset of many postmodernist and poststructuralist philosophers.</p><p>Deleuze also showed his Marxist credentials by using the word <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Deleuze+-+Freud%27s+pasychoanalysis+is+%22idealist%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifP5kAS-YPCWVmCvL2QSa75mCKpcEg%3A1751462921259&amp;ei=CTRlaIjND7uJptQP2pn60Ac&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjI9Yjqo56OAxW7hIkEHdqMHnoQ4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Deleuze+-+Freud%27s+pasychoanalysis+is+%22idealist%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiL0RlbGV1emUgLSBGcmV1ZCdzIHBhc3ljaG9hbmFseXNpcyBpcyAiaWRlYWxpc3QiMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FSOejAVDJBViYnQFwAngBkAEAmAHpBKABokWqAQowLjQ0LjIuNS0xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIwoAL-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&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;idealism&#8221; for Freud&#8217;s psychoanalysis</a>. The term &#8220;idealism&#8221; [see <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Marxists+on+idealism&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPiCYGeYBawMi_1drVTmHkIRMBJbg%3A1751432322624&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=grxkaPCmIoejhbIPqcOayA4&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTKksmQwJ8qBvp6R3jPn9I8132Swzt4&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjw77zrsZ2OAxWHUUEAHamhBukQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Marxists+on+idealism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRNYXJ4aXN0cyBvbiBpZGVhbGlzbTIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVI-TZQAFiwMXACeACQAQCYAXugAZQOqgEEMTYuNLgBA8gBAPgBAZgCFqACqQ_CAgoQIxiABBgnGIoFwgIEECMYJ8ICCxAuGIAEGJECGIoFwgIKEC4YgAQYQxiKBcICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIREC4YgAQYsQMY0QMYgwEYxwHCAggQLhiABBixA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAg4QLhiABBixAxjRAxjHAcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIOEC4YgAQYsQMYgwEY1ALCAg4QLhiABBiRAhjUAhiKBcICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgINEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiKBcICChAAGIAEGEMYigXCAgsQLhiABBixAxjUAsICBBAAGAPCAgUQABiABMICBxAAGIAEGArCAggQABgWGAoYHpgDAJIHBDE3LjWgB8TAAbIHBDE1LjW4B6APwgcGMi0yMC4yyAeGAQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">here</a>], along with &#8220;positivism&#8221; [see <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Marxists+on+positivism&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOPUdqZdWymxXkfWXw9mKOwI3r84Q%3A1751432331107&amp;ei=i7xkaPiqBr6uhbIP97bxaQ&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi4nMbvsZ2OAxU-V0EAHXdbPA0Q4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Marxists+on+positivism&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFk1hcnhpc3RzIG9uIHBvc2l0aXZpc20yBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMggQABiiBBiJBTIIEAAYogQYiQUyCBAAGIAEGKIESIokUL0GWN4ecAF4AZABAJgBWqAB3QaqAQIxMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCDKACtQfCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIEECMYJ8ICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgUQABjvBZgDAIgGAZAGCJIHAjEyoAeJRbIHAjExuAesB8IHBTItOC40yAdQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">here</a>], have often been used by Marxists and left-leaning philosophers about all sorts of (<em>non-idealist</em> and <em>non-positivist</em>) positions.</p><p>In slightly more concrete terms. Deleuze believed that capitalism enforced &#8220;fixed identities&#8221;<strong> </strong>rather than &#8220;multiplicity&#8221;. Yet postmodernists (largely after <em>Anti-Oedipus</em>)<em> </em>and even Marxists have highlighted the fact that capitalism can tolerate <em>multiplicity</em>, as long as that multiplicity doesn&#8217;t threaten <em><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=what+did+the+Nazis+mean+by+das+system%3F&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifMpe2pNHlHQKce8Ps6iWUmtQpdP1A%3A1751539938319&amp;ei=4mBmaJOjE62DhbIPhJrsgAw&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiTnNXewqCOAxWtQUEAHQQNG8AQ4dUDCBA&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=what+did+the+Nazis+mean+by+das+system%3F&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJndoYXQgZGlkIHRoZSBOYXppcyBtZWFuIGJ5IGRhcyBzeXN0ZW0_SPsMUABYAHACeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQCYAgCgAgCYAwCIBgGSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">Das System</a></em>. (<a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Slavoj+Zizek&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM-_7naGc-5KQYS1Iy3XN4UlgWeoA%3A1751539855906&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=j2BmaO3ENbq2hbIPlpDsoQ4&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZun_nYmCu5fv22fJhNtCc2AlGkyh-A&amp;ved=0ahUKEwityK23wqCOAxU6W0EAHRYIO-QQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Slavoj+Zizek&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxTbGF2b2ogWml6ZWsyDRAuGIAEGLEDGEMYigUyChAuGIAEGBQYhwIyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABEjGC1AAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFVoAFVqgEBMbgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAaACYZgDAJIHATGgB7AJsgcBMbgHYcIHAzMtMcgHCQ&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Slavoj &#381;i&#382;ek</a><strong> </strong>talks of<strong> </strong><a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Zizek+on+postmodernism+and+%22hybrid+entities%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifPS-OMxuzABsHXsmRma7Xor3zKBdQ%3A1751463333258&amp;ei=pTVlaNXLD5n-ptQP9u62-AI&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiVssOupZ6OAxUZv4kEHXa3DS8Q4dUDCBI&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Zizek+on+postmodernism+and+%22hybrid+entities%22&amp;gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiLFppemVrIG9uIHBvc3Rtb2Rlcm5pc20gYW5kICJoeWJyaWQgZW50aXRpZXMiMggQIRigARjDBEiaK1CFCFj4JXABeACQAQCYAe4CoAG2HKoBCDAuMTIuNS4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIHoAKZCsICBRAAGO8FwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAgoQIRigARjDBBgKmAMAiAYBkgcFMC40LjOgB6AusgcFMC40LjO4B5kKwgcFMC40LjPIBxc&amp;sclient=gws-wiz-serp">&#8220;hybrid entities&#8221; living comfortably within capitalist states or societies</a>.) Capitalism (with a platonic &#8216;C&#8217;) even takes risks with identities which <em>do</em> threaten <em>Das System</em>.</p><p>As it is, readers can happily agree with some&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;or even many&#8202;&#8212;&#8202;of Deleuze&#8217;s criticisms of Freud&#8217;s positions, and still not embrace Deleuze&#8217;s own vision.</p><h3>Materialist Psychiatry</h3><p>In my last essay<strong> (<a href="https://medium.com/@paulaustinmurphy2000/according-to-deleuze-and-guattari-capitalism-causes-schizophrenia-7f1260c8a66a">&#8216;</a></strong><a href="https://medium.com/@paulaustinmurphy2000/according-to-deleuze-and-guattari-capitalism-causes-schizophrenia-7f1260c8a66a">According to Deleuze and Guattari, Capitalism Causes Schizophrenia&#8217;</a>) I stated how Deleuze shoehorned Marx&#8217;s terms and theories into his own work. Now take a look at <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22Nature+%3D+Industry%2C+Nature+%3D%C2%A0History%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOIRE2gUaRUjQcvRWOWsTrSX-QbHg%3A1751432454080&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Bb1kaIWkOqy7hbIPhLnNgAg&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTLFoZXnX73xEIq4fhz_WGUm3E7E4Uu&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjFupCqsp2OAxWsXUEAHYRcE4AQ4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22Nature+%3D+Industry%2C+Nature+%3D%C2%A0History%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiYiTmF0dXJlID0gSW5kdXN0cnksIE5hdHVyZSA9wqBIaXN0b3J5IjIFECEYoAFImApQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBmQGgAZkBqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKgAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHlQKyBwMwLjG4B6ABwgcDMi0xyAcD&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">the following</a> two &#8220;equations&#8221;:</p><blockquote><p>Nature = Industry, Nature = History</p></blockquote><p>What did Deleuze mean by all that?</p><p>Of course, anything can be likened to anything. So nature can indeed be likened to industry, as well as to history.</p><p>But what point did it serve?</p><p>In 1972, and in the years before, there would have been a lot of pressure on left-leaning intellectuals and academics to incorporate Marxist ideas and terms into their work. Thus, Deleuze talked about his <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22materialist+psychiatry%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM0GnuQcm0o4D_YFng5rEFrP8I_EA%3A1751462917489&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=BTRlaJGxG_TCp84PnO7MoAw&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVCFQ0FgokdsS2tlttSjj2KN8uRZKDx&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjRx6Doo56OAxV04ckDHRw3E8QQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22materialist+psychiatry%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhgibWF0ZXJpYWxpc3QgcHN5Y2hpYXRyeSIyBhAAGBYYHjILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTILEAAYgAQYhgMYigUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIIEAAYogQYiQVI8QhQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBvQGgAb0BqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoALHAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAHuAWyBwMwLjG4B8cBwgcDMy0xyAcI&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;materialist psychiatry&#8221;</a>.</p><p>Deleuze stated that his <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22materialist+psychiatry+desire+into+the+mechanism%2C+and+production+into+desire%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifNT-NjJAxEoZpoeY7e4HSAw2NRfVQ%3A1751462818027&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=oTNlaM2oPPzmwN4P9N3KoQ4&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVBspJElhJiwE-xHq4oODGTPxipc8Ua&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiN_em4o56OAxV8M9AFHfSuMuQQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22materialist+psychiatry+desire+into+the+mechanism%2C+and+production+into+desire%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ik4ibWF0ZXJpYWxpc3QgcHN5Y2hpYXRyeSBkZXNpcmUgaW50byB0aGUgbWVjaGFuaXNtLCBhbmQgcHJvZHVjdGlvbiBpbnRvIGRlc2lyZSJIAFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIAoAIAmAMAkgcAoAcAsgcAuAcAwgcAyAcA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;materialist psychiatry [introduces] desire into the mechanism, and [ ] production into desire&#8221;</a>. So here we have the materialist (as well as <em>reductionist</em>?) word &#8220;mechanism&#8221;, and the Marxist word <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Marx+on+%22production%22&amp;sca_esv=25ee3af95da640d5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOTQ4NznuHF-3qnRxwIByMQ3uepxA%3A1751462871950&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=1zNlaLauN8jgp84P6eX48AM&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGVB59bWKm3bCKG0xsbQwdhGV1G_F3Xt&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj29cTSo56OAxVI8MkDHekyHj4Q4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Marx+on+%22production%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhRNYXJ4IG9uICJwcm9kdWN0aW9uIjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeSKYyUABYwyxwAHgAkAEAmAHJAaAB5RuqAQYwLjE5LjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhSgAs8cwgIEECMYJ8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgsQLhiABBiRAhiKBcICChAuGIAEGEMYigXCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICERAuGIAEGLEDGNEDGIMBGMcBwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAggQABiABBixA8ICCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFwgIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGNEDGMcBwgIOEAAYgAQYkQIYsQMYigXCAg4QLhiABBiRAhjUAhiKBcICDRAAGIAEGLEDGEMYigXCAg0QLhiABBixAxhDGIoFwgIKEAAYgAQYFBiHAsICBRAAGIAEwgIFEC4YgASYAwCSBwYwLjE4LjKgB8fNAbIHBjAuMTguMrgHzxzCBwYyLTE5LjHIB1w&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;production&#8221;</a> in a passage about psychiatry.</p><p>Deleuze even tied Marx to his own interest in &#8220;desire&#8221;. He told his readers that <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=%22As+Marx+notes%2C+what+exists+in+fact+is+not+lack%2C+but+passion%2C+as+a+%27natural+and+sensuous+object%27%22&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOjM2XVsN5QSK-toutQEU0ZecheJg%3A1751432509241&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Pb1kaInBC9mzhbIPnu_RsAg&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTLTWbYz1hBVvMNETuNLRnYtFaTxfUU&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjJ07vEsp2OAxXZWUEAHZ53FIYQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=%22As+Marx+notes%2C+what+exists+in+fact+is+not+lack%2C+but+passion%2C+as+a+%27natural+and+sensuous+object%27%22&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6ImEiQXMgTWFyeCBub3Rlcywgd2hhdCBleGlzdHMgaW4gZmFjdCBpcyBub3QgbGFjaywgYnV0IHBhc3Npb24sIGFzIGEgJ25hdHVyYWwgYW5kIHNlbnN1b3VzIG9iamVjdCciSABQAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAPgBAvgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAHALIHALgHAMIHAMgHAA&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">&#8220;[a]s Marx notes, what exists in fact is not lack, but passion, as a &#8216;natural and sensuous object&#8217;&#8221;</a>. (Marx used the word &#8220;passion&#8221; not &#8220;desire&#8221;, but one can see what&#8217;s going on here.)</p><p>To an outsider, it may seem odd to claim that a kind of psychiatry can be &#8220;materialist&#8221;. However, it was a specific kind of <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=materialism&amp;sca_esv=29db07fc8cf0577a&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifOGS1ZxEZ7kLlziNIvguSSdUI45Vg%3A1751540067788&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=Y2FmaOP5K8LPhbIPk5W1-AU&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGZvc1xftuaZFPeDgdCkxzoD5prKbHqK&amp;ved=0ahUKEwijt6-cw6COAxXCZ0EAHZNKDV8Q4dUDCBk&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=materialism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgttYXRlcmlhbGlzbTILEAAYgAQYkQIYigUyCxAAGIAEGJECGIoFMgsQLhiABBiRAhiKBTIIEAAYgAQYsQMyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARI4hdQAFjSEnAAeACQAQCYAXagAdkHqgEDOC4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAILoAKlCMICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgQQIxgnwgIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBcICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIOEC4YgAQYsQMY0QMYxwHCAhAQLhiABBixAxhDGIMBGIoFwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAgoQLhiABBhDGIoFwgINEC4YgAQYsQMYQxiKBcICExAuGIAEGLEDGEMYxwEYigUYrwHCAhAQABiABBiRAhiKBRhGGPkBwgIMEAAYgAQYQxiKBRgKwgINEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiKBcICDhAuGIAEGJECGLEDGIoFmAMAkgcDNi41oAfUhAGyBwM2LjW4B6UIwgcGMi0xMC4xyAdD&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">materialism</a> Deleuze had in mind: <a href="/__u/www.google.com/search?q=Marxist+materialism&amp;sca_esv=005b6c4fc39c80c5&amp;sxsrf=AE3TifM0qfNgo4btHT2fHq_n9acSNIedGw%3A1751432567495&amp;source=hp&amp;ei=d71kaPX8G96DhbIPmsvvuAo&amp;iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaGTLh0Hn5kdOSZbSyCNpcGsB4WyQQ3-U&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi1lKDgsp2OAxXeQUEAHZrlG6cQ4dUDCCs&amp;uact=5&amp;oq=Marxist+materialism&amp;gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IhNNYXJ4aXN0IG1hdGVyaWFsaXNtMgUQABiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHkjIClAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAGFAaABhQGqAQMwLjG4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgGgApEBmAMAkgcDMC4xoAeOB7IHAzAuMbgHkQHCBwMzLTHIBwo&amp;sclient=gws-wiz">Marxist (or historical) materialism</a>.</p><div class="subscription-widget-wrap-editor" data-attrs="{&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https://paulaustinmurphy.substack.com/subscribe?&quot;,&quot;text&quot;:&quot;Subscribe&quot;,&quot;language&quot;:&quot;en&quot;}" data-component-name="SubscribeWidgetToDOM"><div class="subscription-widget show-subscribe"><div class="preamble"><p class="cta-caption">Thanks for reading Paul Austin Murphy's Philosophy! 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