Super excited to have chatted with Meg from JeanGenieVintage and dive into her incredible knowledge of denim—vintage denim, that is!

I’m thrilled to share some of her favorite denim insights, along with the story behind how she started her vintage denim shop. I first came across her IG from following Jen. Sattler - Jen has the best coffee chats (check out her IG).

Naturally, we kicked things off with one of our style icons: Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. And the question every vintage denim lover wants answered – what fit is she wearing?

The Two Mrs: Meg, tell me a little bit about yourself. When did your obsession with denim start?

Meg: I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, went to physical therapy school at Kansas University, and practiced for 20 years. I moved around a bit, the last place being San Francisco, before settling in Charleston, SC – where I’ve now lived for 12 years.

My obsession with denim started early, in 2^nd grade to be exact. I got my first pair of Guess jeans (the ones that zipped at the ankle), and I was hooked! They were perfect and I thought I looked so cool.

The Two Mrs: You started JeanGenieVintage in 2020, what made you start your own vintage denim business?

Meg: When the pandemic hit, I lost the yoga studio I had founded in Charleston in 2016, and at the time the PT work I was doing wasn’t considered “essential”, so needless to say – I was bored. I started hunting for vintage Levi’s online, which previously I’d been hunting in-person – in any city I found myself. Every time I bought a pair online however, they didn’t fit. This happened A LOT. Since I couldn’t return them, I had to resell them. But when I did, I included exact measurements. When I saw how fast they sold, I thought hey maybe I could do this for a little side hustle. I started selling my own clothes to buy more Levi’s – and that’s how I started Jean Genie Vintage Co. I had my daughter Layla in 2021, which slowed down my momentum down a bit, but she’s really the reason I started it – for more flexibility as a mom.

The Two Mrs: Tell me how you make it easy for people to shop vintage denim on your site?

Meg: I’ve designed my site so it’s easy for people to figure out (at home) what their denim flat lay measurements are. I have a very easy to follow “fit guide”. Following step-by-step on how to measure will help you find your own measurements to ensure they fit! It’s really simple, and I just want to get everyone in their perfect vintage pair of denim! Below is a glimpse of how to measure:

Levi’s very first collab: San Francisco wholesaler Levi Strauss and Nevada-based tailor Jacob Davis linked up to revolutionize work pants with the addition of durable rivets to make them even stronger. The denim duo patented this process on May 20, 1873, creating the blueprint for all blue jeans —and the rest is history. We now know this icon as Levi’s® 501® Jeans.

The 501: The OG, the GOAT of Levi’s jeans - and likely the most popular and most worn jean in history since they came to be with their patented rivets in 1873. Flattering on every shape and size. The 501 is a regular fit with a straight leg, known as “original fit”. They have more coverage in the seat and are a bit smaller in the waist and roomier in the thighs, so they work great for all body types. This is also how we get that perfectly hugged bum. 501s are different in that the back panel is cut wider than the front panel - super flattering to one’s backside. Also special, the rise is cut in a straight line as opposed to curved, known as anti-fit, which can take some getting used to for some.

The 505: This is a straight leg, regular fit with a mid to high rise cut with a zipper fly. 505s are very straight, and the hip/bum area tends to run narrower than a 501. The back and front panels are equal width, unlike the 501, which gives you a more tailored look. The 505 from the 80s and 90s tend to have a slightly lower rise than those made in the 70s. This style was introduced in 1967 and was an iconic style in the 1970s, made famous among others by The Ramones or by the Rolling Stone’s Sticky Fingers album cover.

The 517: First introduced in 1969 as “Saddleman” jeans, 517s were specifically made to fit over Western boots. They are considered a “boot cut” and have a subtle flare from the knee down. Depending on the era of your 517, it can be high waist or more of a mid-rise. The flare on the 517 varies throughout the decades, with the flare being more pronounced in the 70s and becoming more subdued by late 80s and through 2002+. But they always (IMO) are flattering as they truly elongate the leg.

Similarly to the 505, the 517 is a straight and narrow fit through the waist and hips for a more tailored look.

The Two Mrs: Is Carolyn wearing the 517’s or 646?

Meg: In the photos above, I truly feel she is wearing a 646.

The 646 and the 517 get mixed up all the time because, in the ‘70s, there was a lot of crossover in their silhouettes. Early 517s weren’t the subtle bootcuts people think of today — they had a much more pronounced break at the knee, to the point where some pairs almost look like a flare, or what I’d call a baby bell.

One of the easiest ways to tell them apart is by looking at the belt loops. A 646 has seven belt loops. In some of the photos of CBK in this specific light washed and repaired jeans she’s wearing in these photos, you can see the two front loops, you can just make out one loop on each side. Then there’d be 3 in the back.

A 517 traditionally has five belt loops. Now, that’s not an absolute rule because, as the years went on — and especially in larger waist sizes — you’ll find later 517s with seven loops as well. So, I wouldn’t use the belt loops as the only way to identify them, but it’s a really reliable clue, especially when you’re looking at vintage pairs.

The tag inside will always say what the style number is, but often the old pairs have faded to the point of being able to read or removed altogether.

Another way to tell the difference between the two is the 517 always has a brown patch on the back right of the waist, though often it’s been removed somewhere along the way. The 646 never had those. Often you can see little white remnants of stitches that held a paper tag on the back right waistband.

The Two Mrs: Let’s talk about Love Story, the RM series and your part in it? Did you watch the series? I was contacted by their styling team on where they should buy all things CBK and I immediately thought of you for vintage denim!

Meg: I did watch it – twice! The first time I watched it was for the storyline. The second time I tuned in was to focus more on the clothes – especially the jeans. Their team did end up purchasing a pair of 517’s from me, but I don’t think they made it on to the series. I will note that I wish they would have asked for my help or input in choosing. ;)

The Two Mrs: Let’s talk about another Icon: Jane Birkin. I really love that Creative Director, Chemena Kamali (at Chloe) has embraced Jane’s love for denim and in the last several years has designed their denim with a Jane flair.

Meg: Yes, I agree. Chemena is incredible. I love what she’s doing with Chloe, especially her denim. The pair she made to look like Jane’s patchwork Levi’s bell bottoms are so amazing! I went to NYC a couple years ago and found a pair of them – the last pair Chloe had in the shop – and they were my size, so they had to come with me.

Check out how Meg recreated Chemena’s Chloe Cropped wide-leg denim with a pair of 517’s from 1984:

The Two Mrs: Do you ever shop for designer jeans? If so, which ones are your favorite and why?

Meg: In my closet, I have probably 80 pairs of vintage Levi’s of all styles. I’m constantly editing my collection. The only other 2 pairs of jeans I own are the Chloe “Birkin” jeans, and a pair of jeans by The Only Jane - the Bob. I love Jane Herman and I’ve always admired her — not only for her designs, but for her commitment to making exceptional, USA-made denim with integrity and intention.

If you’re wondering where Jenna Lyons buys her vintage - listen here:

Jenna Lyons on How Fashion Can Build Confidence & Empower you - via Harpers BAZARR

The Two Mrs: You recently went to Milan. How was the vintage shopping there?

Meg: We only had 6 hours to devote to my vintage shopping in Milan so I had to be super-efficient. I hit 3 highly recommended shops. My takeaway was that the stores all felt thoughtfully curated. The people working there really knew the inventory, the prices felt fair, and every garment was treated with care. Most of all, shopping felt approachable — it was inspiring without ever feeling intimidating or pretentious. I wrote a super detailed substack on it too.

Jean Genie Vintage

The Jean Genie Field Guide to Vintage Milan

Welcome! I’m Meg — founder of Jean Genie Vintage, curated online vintage denim destination — built on over a decade of sourcing, studying, and wearing vintage Levi’s, with clear-eyed advice on fit, quality, and value…

Read more

2 months ago · 14 likes · 1 comment · Meg @ Jean Genie Vintage

Fun fact about Meg: I have always been a David Bowie fan ( I have at least one piece of Bowie art hanging in every room in my house), and I ALMOST opened a denim bar in 2008 that was to be called — The Jean Genie. So here we are years later. Full circle. And I’m happy to be here.

The Two Mrs: check out Meg’s Substack for all things denim :

RoseMarie: I’m just watching the Knicks parade.

The Two Mrs: First, congrats on the Knicks winning the championship. I’m sure John would have been thrilled, right? Did John have season tickets?

RoseMarie: Yes! John would have loved it. He had two sets of season tickets. He shared a set with Hachette and a set with a friend. He took me to a game for my birthday once and we sat courtside. It was awesome.

The Two Mrs.: wow that must have been such a treat!

Okay. Okay. So, let’s get into it - Tell me about your background, Rose. I know you’re a New Yorker, but tell me, where were you born and raised and all that good stuff?

RoseMarie: I was born and raised in the Bronx in a neighborhood called Morris Park. I have three older sisters, we lived with my mom, my dad, my great-grandmother, and my grandmother. We all lived downstairs with my great-grandmother and my grandmother lived upstairs. And, that’s how I grew up.

The Two Mrs: That’s so nice because I feel like family is so important. I feel like John thought that too, right? He was super close to his mom and sister Caroline.

RoseMarie: John was remarkably close to his family.

The Two Mrs: Then school, you attended high school, college, and when you got out of college was The PR firm your first job, with Michael Berman?

RoseMarie: No, my first job I took an internship for a TV production company up in Westchester. My first job was with the New York Knicks. I was a temp at the practice facility for the New York Rangers because I needed a job and I went to a temp agency and there was a receptionist job working for the Rangers - opening their fan mail and doing admin work. I worked for them for a while. I can’t remember how long. Then a job opened up at the Knicks in the front office, and I was the assistant to the executive assistant to the general manager of the Knicks. I had season tickets to the Knicks and the Rangers.

The Two Mrs.: So, you are a true fan.

RoseMarie: I mean, even in college, I used to go to Knick games. I think I went to every single Iona home game when I was in college. I just always loved basketball. In 1993, I landed the job with Michael Berman at the PR Firm. I worked with Michael from 1993 – 1994. John and Michael were on board of a charity together called Naked Angles and knew each other from that circle. It was a theater company. John would call the office to speak to Michael.. Michael was sort of like his PR Advisor.

Meeting John the first time: I walked in one day and John was in my office. And he was packing everything up with Efigenio, his house manager. And I was like, what are you doing here? Can you get your hands off my stuff? And he ripped my Howard Stern headshot by accident that Howard’s producer, Gary Dell’Abate had given me. I was really ******. And he was like, what? I said, “This is my office”! He said Michael told him he could move in here. I then said, why do you need an office anyway? You don’t even have a job!

Michael called me into his office and with a kind of hysterical laugh said to me, “You could be arrested in some states for the way you just spoke to him. Michael, why can’t he? Michael said come on, Rose, he’s going to take that office and you’ll be fine.

I moved into my small office and John would come in -in the morning and would walk by my office and he would say good morning and I would ignore him, and he would say good morning and I would ignore him, and then I think it was probably like the second week that he’d gotten tired of being ignored…he stood in my doorway in his rollerblades and said, Good morning, Rose. And I looked up because he’d never said my name before. He just said, good morning, I looked up and he gave me the finger, and we both started laughing! And then every morning he would come in and be like, Hey loser. And I’d say, Hey loser.

I remember one time I was walking to work because I could walk to the office from my apartment then. I’m walking through Madison Park, which wasn’t Madison Square Park at that time. It was just kind of like a park, but it wasn’t as nice as it is now. There was no Shake Shack or anything. And he was in the park with his dog. I yelled out, John! And he didn’t turn around and he didn’t say hello. So, when he made it to the office, I said to him, that was so rude. and he’s like, What? I saw you in the park, and said, hey, John, and you didn’t even turn around. “Do you know how many people say, ‘Hey, John,’…If I turned around every single time, I would never get here”.

But he kind of had this attitude, like, I don’t really know it any other way. John was a New Yorker. He was like everybody else, just kind of going about his business.

The Two Mrs: By mid-February of ‘94 you had started working directly for John. Also, Jackie had already been diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Did you ever speak to Jackie on the phone? If so, what did she sound like?

RoseMarie: I remember Michael telling me, John’s mom was sick.

I talked to her on the phone once. She sounded exactly like what you think she’d sound like soft spoken. She was like, hello? And I was like; oh, I know who this is. 😊

It must’ve been 3 months before I started working for John, and that May she passed away. John didn’t come to the office for a week or so. When he comes back, I just remember you could see it on his face. It was tough.

The Two Mrs: Did you ever visit 1040?

RoseMarie: I don’t remember...I might have gone once, but I don’t remember. John wasn’t at 1040 that long. He was there while his apartment in Tribeca was being renovated.

The Two Mrs: John and Michael launched Random Ventures. As you’re getting to know John as a boss, did you have an idea of what to expect? Were you nervous, terrified about your role?

RoseMarie: I wasn’t terrified. I had never been an executive assistant before, so I didn’t know what to expect. He never had an EA before, so I was lucky in the sense that I kind of made my own way. He would drop things on my desk and say, can you RSVP yes to this, or can you decline this. And he’d would do it piecemeal and finally I said this isn’t working. I got him this box and said, okay, the top shelf is yes, the bottom shelf is no. And of course, he didn’t do it right, lol. I said to him just write yes or no on the top of the paper and leave it in this box.

We had to get organized, so I said to him, “Do you have a calendar? How do you remember where you’re supposed to be? I ended up getting a desk calendar that sits on your desk, like those big ones. I would write his appts on that. He could see what was going on that day.

The Two Mrs: Do you still have all those notes and notebooks? You were his gatekeeper, you knew everything, what he was doing, who he was meeting. I always said Rose knows everything. She knew John’s whereabouts!

RoseMarie: Why yes, I do. I still have my paper calendar. I kept everything. I still have my message pads. You know, the message pads that had like the copy under it. I would leave his messages in a box, but then I had the yellow copy in the book. In comparison to today, with phones and calendar invites, it feels like nothing is permanent.

The Two Mrs: Was your role as John’s EA a challenge? How hard was it to navigate who had access to him? Were people just asking to meet with him, just to say I met with JFK Jr? How did you handle the media and respond to things when everyone was calling?

RoseMarie: In the beginning, I always doubted myself. I always thought, oh, did I screwed that up? Oh, I messed that up. Oh, I forgot that. I was really hard on myself, and I’ve worked on that because I don’t want that to be limiting. I remember a boss I had, and I went in for my review and she said, “I just want to start this by saying, I could never be as hard on you as you are on yourself. So don’t worry about this.” It was the unknown that was challenging. You don’t know...you ask yourself how am I going to react to this? Especially with someone as big as John. You’re also reading the person; you’re reading the entire ecosystem around him. You want to do your job well, and you also don’t want to alienate everyone around you.

It was like this constant dance of trying to be a good gatekeeper, right? And if he’s not accessible, then I should be accessible so that people don’t feel locked out and they don’t feel like they’re not respected. So many people wanted access to him. Sometimes it was like the most nonsensical thing that somebody would want to go in and just to say that they were in his office that day, you know?

I learned so much from Michael Berman because Michael was a master at it. Michael understood it from both sides. He understood it as a business, and he understood it as public consumption. I learned a lot from him. I also learned a lot from John because if one thing John knew was how to handle press and media. He could see where a story would go and tell you exactly where the story came from. John read a lot, he read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the New York Post, the Daily News. He read them all.

John would go straight to Page 6 to see if he was in it, lol!!

The Two Mrs: You mentioned in an interview that John got mail. This was not George mail, but just John’s personal mail. Was it fan mail?

RoseMarie: Do you ever see those mailboxes, the white plastic boxes? I would get five of those filled in a day. People were sending him pictures of their kids, requests to be at a charity, and invited him to events. Some odd ones – like this woman stating, “you abandoned me, and you left me here with these kids”.

And I remember this one guy would write to him, like four letters a week. Serial killer handwriting (sorry cannot say his name) they were small white envelopes, dirty, and it was just the weirdest thing. I would not give them to him in the beginning, but one day, he came by, and it was sitting on my desk, and he says, “Oh, look who found me”. I asked him, “Do you know this person”? John says, “this guy’s been writing to me since I was at Brown and writing just random stuff”. The letters were just repeating the same thing. It was the same letter every time. It was about four letters a week or something like that.

The Two Mrs: I love this story you shared in Fairy Tale Interrupted, when you were making hotel reservations for John.

RoseMarie: I would not use his name. I did not know that I was supposed to use his name. I was making the reservations under my name for privacy reasons, and he came back from a trip, and he was like, when you make hotel reservations, you can put it under my name. I said, was there a problem? John’s like, no, it just sucks to travel as you. I don’t get it with champagne. I don’t get a fruit basket, the upgrade, lol.

The Two Mrs: The launch of George Magazine. Were you at the press conference?

RoseMarie: Yes. I immediately asked Carolyn, what am I going to wear? She’s like, “You’re going to go see Lars Nord, the tailor. He will make you something.” He was the tailor for every high-end designer, like Versace, Valentino, Armani, Prada, he did couture, he did everything, he is a genius. He made me the most gorgeous, I wish I still had it, a very pale pink suit. It was a skirt and a jacket. Carolyn suggested I wear a white T-shirt under that, and we’re going to get you a pair of Manolo’s. She got me a pair; they were pink and white Manolo’s.

The Two Mrs: In Fairy Tale, you shared a story about John getting the first issue of the magazine, a sample of it in the office, and did not share it with you. Tell me about it?

RoseMarie: It was the first issue - and he called everybody on the staff into a meeting in his office, whoever was around. I remember it came in the middle of the day. I was sitting at my desk, and I thought he was calling like an impromptu editorial meeting. And he showed them the magazine, and they all went through it, and they talked about it and everybody was so giddy and they came out like, oh my God, that was so cool. I asked, “oh, what happened?” They said John just showed them the first issue. I remember I was crushed, thinking, how could he not invite me in? It came from corporate, and he just opened it, and he never showed it to me, I was really upset. He said, if you’re going to act like this all day, you might as well just go home. I didn’t say a word. Carolyn called and knew something was wrong, and asked, “what’s going on”, she could hear it in my voice that I was upset, and I told her. I said, please don’t say anything to him.

The very next day he came in and he apologized, and he sat with me, and he took me through the magazine. I know she said something. I asked, “Did you say anything?” She said that, when he got home, she just said, “oh my God, you made Rosie cry. That’s so gross, what is wrong with you?”

The Two Mrs: Tell me about the time John met your parents. Were they excited? What did your parents think of John?

RoseMarie: Yes, he met my parents. I said to my mom and dad, “Why don’t you come meet me for lunch and, you know, come up to the office and meet John” Of course, they show up like two hours early because they are so excited. And I thought, oh God, they are REALLY early. They waited across the street, at a diner and they came up and I said to John, “my parents are coming to meet me for lunch, and you better be nice to them.”

And so, they came in and I introduced them, mom, this is John, John, this is my mom, my dad. He brings them into his office, and he closes the door and leaves me outside. And I’m dying because I’m thinking, please don’t embarrass me. All three of you, please don’t embarrass me. My parents later shared that he was so nice, and he was so great. He talked to my dad about politics and my mom about me. It was sweet. They were in his office for an hour.

The Two Mrs: John running for office. Do you think that he would have run for mayor of NYC or Governor? Could you see Carolyn campaigning? Would she have enjoyed it?

RoseMarie: I think running for governor was on the horizon. I think Carolyn would have loved campaigning more than any other political wife in the world. I could see her enjoying it.

The Two Mrs: You met Carolyn in 1994. How long were they dating before she moved in? Did she stay with him at 1040? Why did she quit her job?

RoseMarie: She stayed with John at 1040 while he was there, then they moved into Tribeca right after, they were not at 1040 very long. They were dating for a year by then, right after his mom passed away.

She was working at Calvin Klein in 1995 which was when they got engaged. There was so much going on for her, one being that they were trying to keep the whole thing on the downlow, and two she wanted to be by John’s side. It was impossible for her to continue working, travel with John for George events, or his charity – or if he could not attend, she would attend for him. Like having to attend Gianni Versace’s funeral service, John couldn’t go. He had some other thing he was doing for George, so Carolyn had to go.

I also think Carolyn’s job at Calvin Klein was her first career job, and I don’t think she wanted to do that forever. She wanted to take time off to figure out what she was going to do next. In the meantime, she was traveling with John or for him.

The Two Mrs: Do you feel like that is when the paparazzi was crazy then too? Like, did it start then or later?

RoseMarie: The paparazzi escalated after they got married. It was strange because we all thought, once they’re married, it would die down because he’s married and he’s not the world’s most eligible bachelor anymore, and it went the other way.

The Two Mrs: Do you think John ever sat with Carolyn and explained how her life would change, either dating him or marrying him? I mean the attention she would get, like his family encountered.

RoseMarie: I don’t think that was John’s way because he didn’t do it with me either. It wasn’t like he sat down and said, you know, you have to do this, and you have to be careful. I don’t think he saw it as something to have a big conversation about. I’m sure they had many private conversations, but it was more about this is what happens when this happens or how to handle a situation. It wasn’t the same for him, so he really couldn’t sit there and say, oh, you know, before I was famous, I did this and this. John had always had a different experience.

The Two Mrs: Would you say then that after they got married, the paparazzi was worse for her than Jackie? Because I feel like when you see pictures of Jackie walking around New York or Central Park, people left her alone, they knew not to go up to her.

RoseMarie: I think it was a very different scenario. I think Jackie had it very different, she was the first lady. She was older, she had children. They were mindful of that. And remember I think she had a restraining order against Ron Galella because he harassed her so much. So, it happened for her later on in life, I think it was a different world. You know, you’re talking about the 70s versus the 90s. In the 70s, there wasn’t this like giant bounty on a photograph with a million different tabloids. Magazines and newspapers were there, but there weren’t as many of them.

The Two Mrs. Were people approaching Carolyn? I think I read somewhere that she was with John Perry Barlow and that some woman grabbed her from her wrist, and asked are you Carolyn Bessette Kennedy? Carolyn nodded yes, and this woman said, “come here, you’re going to meet my friends.” And she tried to take Carolyn outside to a table of friends. Was there a lot of that?

RoseMarie: Yes, and it was the paparazzi and not all of them, but some paparazzi probably young and starting out, they would scream horrible things at her like, just to get a reaction. But they never did it when John was around.

I do think that there was some of “she’s not good enough for him.” It had a lot to do with who he was, you know, nobody would be good enough for him.

The Two Mrs: The park scene, the crazy park fight we all saw play out. When it released, what was Carolyn’s reaction? What was the tone like in the George office?

RoseMarie: I remember Michael and John having a lot of conversations about it, behind closed doors, but I think it was more, from John’s perspective, I don’t know if he felt this way or if this was just his reaction to it, it was like business as usual. Like this too shall pass.

It’s gonna be a few days of this and then it’ll be gone. For Carolyn, I think she felt really bad about it. I think she was embarrassed. And I think she was really angry that it was such an invasion of their privacy. This woman, who had been taunting and following them. She had a video camera that she had buried in the dirt in Central Park so that when they turned around, they wouldn’t see it. They were following them that entire day. It wasn’t just like they saw them fighting. They had been following them all morning, like from eight o’clock in the morning until that happened. They got on the subway, and I think at one point they even separated and took two different subways to get off their trail.

The Two Mrs: The Wedding. How crazy was it for you to help plan the wedding? And how is it hard for you to keep that secret?

RoseMarie: Carolyn planned the wedding. I mean, it was very DIY. And she did everything herself. Her friend Gordon knew someone at a restaurant, so Gordon got a lot of the stuff shipped from NYC to Cumberland Island. I did help and it was chaotic, but most of the planning was Carolyn and GoGo Ferguson.

The Two Mrs: Do you regret not going to the wedding?

RoseMarie: No, it was such an intimate thing, and it’s not like I could bring a date. It was mostly family; close friends who’d known them for years and years from college or Calvin. John’s cousin Patrick did some event and spilled the beans – he said, “for those of you who are wondering, my cousin John did get married today”. Then my phone was just ringing off the hook, it was constant. I’m thinking …why did you do that?

The Two Mrs: I don’t know if it was People Magazine, but I remember the paparazzi getting this aerial view, pictures of them on the beach. And I’m like, how did they get this? Then I saw the picture of Ted in one of the pickup trucks.

Was that somebody that was at the wedding or was that paparazzi?

RoseMarie: I don’t know how they got that shot. Likely a plane. There was one paparazzo who got onto the island somehow. And there is a story in the in the oral biography, George, Carolyn’s friend tells the story of this guy who’s just like walking through swamps to try and get this photo. And he finally comes out and he surrenders. And they just took him off the island.

The Two Mrs: Did Carolyn get one of her sisters to be maid of honor?

RoseMarie: Lauren was her maid of honor and Caroline was her matron of honor.

The Two Mrs: Was there an awkward toast by Carolyn’s mom?

RoseMarie: It wasn’t. That was BS! The only thing she said was something like, “I hope Carolyn can handle the pressure”. She was concerned about Carolyn and about that kind of public life she would have.

The Two Mrs: The wedding photo that was released. Did you help pick it out?

RoseMarie: Dennis Reggie was the photographer, and he sent photos to John and Carolyn. They picked two, and she phoned me and asked me which one they should go with. I loved them both and I picked the infamous one of John kissing her hand as they walked out of the chapel. It was perfect!

The Two Mrs: I’m not sure you see this often, but so many people comment that John didn’t keep Carolyn safe as far as the paparazzi and where they lived. Do you think having a doorman would have made a difference?

RoseMarie: I don’t think it would’ve. I think it might have made it worse. They didn’t want to live like that. They were not all about having a doorman - they were a little boho.

The Two Mrs: By 1997, was it getting harder for Carolyn to leave the house and not be followed by the paparazzi?

Rose Marie: That whole thing, she never left the house was nonsense. She would go out during the day. If she saw too many photographers, she would go back home and didn’t want to be followed all day. She started to get strategic about when she left and when she came home. She would say to me, “If I am out by eight in the morning, I dodge a bullet. If I leave at 9, I am screwed”. She would call and joke by saying “I’m going out in the field, I’ll call you later”. They went out at night, and they went to Martha’s Vineyard or Hyannis every weekend. This idea that she was a recluse is just ridiculous.

The Two Mrs: Did Carolyn ever attend George events with friends to make her feel at ease?

RoseMarie: No, she went by herself. Or she knew people who were going to be there. Like when she went to Italy for Versace, Paolo Cesana who became friends with John - Carolyn became friends with his girlfriend. She also attended the Fire and Ice Ball with Bobby and Maria Shriver.

The Two Mrs: Did Carolyn ever do volunteer work for a children’s literacy program like ’97 or ’98?

Rose Marie: No, she was exploring starting something for children but never volunteered for a literacy program that I recall.

The Two Mrs: Tell us something we don’t know about Carolyn. What was her favorite movie? Or the kind of music they listened to.

RoseMarie: John & Carolyn listened to all kinds of music. She loved alternative music. She loved Fiona Apple. She also loved jazz, Miles Davis. I know her favorite movie because it was my favorite movie, The Wizard of Oz.

The Two Mrs: Was she like high energy? In looking at pictures of her she must’ve so cool and fun to hang out with. From what I’ve read, she was very sharp and witty. Was she like that?

RoseMarie: Yes, she was, I remember I was going to London for something. One of our George colleagues was getting married in London and we got invited. Five of us went to his wedding. It was a blast. I was worried about what I was going to pack to wear. She’s like, “it doesn’t matter, honey. You’re from New York. You’re always going to be the best dressed person”.

The Two Mrs: There are pictures of John and Carolyn in Los Angeles. What was that trip for? The tabloids claimed they were looking for a home out here. Is that true?

RoseMarie: There were two trips. One was for George, they did a charity event for Naked Angels, a play they did called Gunplay. George had sponsored it. I think they also stayed to visit Bobby and Maria, and a friend, Kevin Ruf.

The Two Mrs: The picture of you blowing out your candles? Who took that? And why don’t we have any pictures of Carolyn’s birthday?

RoseMarie: Frank took that picture of me blowing out my candles. There are no pictures of us celebrating her birthday because you must remember we didn’t have cell phones. There were no camera phones, and we were not walking around with cameras. Not like today, everything is recorded.

The Two Mrs: I’m going to jump to 1999 - I’m going to read an excerpt from Sasha, from your book.: JFK Jr Oral Bio. Chapter 23: 1999, that last year was just bad.

Sasha: “John and his sister were in this terrible way, George was falling apart, Anthony was dying, and John and Carolyn were estranged a lot of the time, even though John was still really wanting, they both were, to work through something, right? Their stuff, their issues.”

Why were John and his sister so distant in 1999? What was going on?

RoseMarie: They had a sibling spat. It had something to do with an HBO Special about his dad, JFK. It was the anniversary of his dad’s death or something like that, and John didn’t want to participate in it, and they were going back and forth about it but of course, they reconciled. John and Caroline were always remarkably close.

I think it was a little overblown. John and Carolyn were not living apart. Trust me, they weren’t. It was just a lot of things; it was the perfect storm of things going on all at once. Anthony was extremely sick at this point; Hachette had pulled out of George and John was going to find a way to keep it going. John was traveling a lot, meeting with investors. So, many obligations for George and Carolyn was also trying to keep it together for Anthony and Carole. Anthony being so sick was the toughest thing for John to accept.

John and Carolyn needed time just the two of them because most of the time they were doing events, traveling, hosting friends on the Vineyard and Hyannis Port. Then when they’d return home, they had to catch up on family time. Or Carolyn would have her grandma come out to stay with her. Then Lauren moved to NYC, just around the corner.

The Two Mrs: Was John staying at The Stanhope? If so, why? Where was Carolyn?

RoseMarie: He stayed at The Stanhope, one night. He was writing Anthony’s eulogy. It was the night of the Yankees game. Carolyn was in the hospital with Anthony and Carole.

The Two Mrs: Do you think the expectations for John were high? To run for office?

RoseMarie: There was this expectation that he was this great hope that he was going to be in office or be president, right? It would be like you know, to finish what his father started. Especially for those who grew up with him and saw him as the little boy who lost his dad. I feel like it was a little hard for him to talk about anything that had to do with his father’s death. I’m just speculating, but I think part of it was that he was so young and there’s not a lot that he remembered. John had turned three on the night of his father’s funeral.

The Two Mrs: After the funeral and everything was over, when did it all sink in for you? When did you stop and realize he is not coming back?

RoseMarie: It was a process. It still happens occasionally. I perpetually live with what if.

The Two Mrs: How long did it take you to get back into the groove of things, moving on with your life, your career and starting your own PR firm?

RoseMarie: I started looking for work, three to six months after. After I worked with Caroline and closed out the apartment and all of that.

The Two Mrs: I love your book, Fairy Tale Interrupted, it was one of the first books I read. What made you write it? How long did it take you to write it?

RoseMarie: I think when my mom passed away. I was approached before to write a book, and I didn’t want to and then I think when my mom passed away, I thought it was more like a tribute to her. It took me about three years to write it.

The Two Mrs: This entire time I thought you named it Fairy Tale Interrupted for them.

RoseMarie: No, it was mine. Yes, it was my fairy tale, interrupted.

The Two Mrs: After reading Fairy Tale what sticks out to me, was your loyalty to John. Was he just as loyal to you and did he always have your back?

RoseMarie: Oh yeah, and so did Carolyn. That is something too that I think about all the time, when I was working with him, I always knew I’d be fine, and I think everyone felt like that who was close to him.

The Two Mrs: In Fairy Tale Interrupted. Caroline Kennedy asked you to pack up John and Carolyn’s clothes, and belongings. Caroline had given his male friends some of John’s ties and his female friends got to pick one of his hats. I thought that was sweet. Did Carolyn’s mom ask you to do the same with her stuff? What happened to her handbags, and clothing?

RoseMarie: Her family has most of her stuff. But Carolyn also gave a lot of things away when she was alive. She gave me clothes and handbags and coats, and she gave me a ring of hers that she had from when she graduated high school. She said, “I never wear it”. And so, I had it made into one of my engagement rings.

The Two Mrs: You are in crisis management now? Is that right?

RoseMarie: Yes, crisis, reputation, and PR, and I love it. It makes me happy when I can help somebody through a crisis.

The Two Mrs: And my last question, do you have another book in you?

RoseMarie: (Rose giggles) I have no idea. We will see. I promise I will let you know as soon as I know.

RoseMarie and John - Dancing to Prince at George’s Christmas Party, 1998.

Zack and Carolyn

Recently, I took a deep dive into the remarkable work of Zack Carr, uncovering his extensive collection of photographs and sketches that reflected his unique vision. His tenure as Creative Director at Calvin Klein stands out as a defining chapter, where he played a pivotal role in shaping the brand’s global identity and elevating American fashion to new heights.

Along the way, I had the privilege of connecting with Patricia, who worked with Zack and Calvin. She shared fascinating stories and insights about the dynamic, high-pressure, and creatively charged environment at Ralph Lauren and Calvin Klein—an era that continues to influence the fashion industry today.

Q: Hi Patricia - Please tell me about yourself?

Patricia: I am an Artist and a Classically certified Pilates instructor. An empty nester. Grandmother of one grandson.

Q: Was design something you always wanted to do?

Patricia :Yes. After I graduated from University of Cincinnati (5-year BS in Fashion Design) I moved to New York. 1982.

Q: Was Ralph Lauren your first job in the retail industry?

Patricia : My first job was at Darlington Fabrics. A stretch fabric mill. When I worked at RL, it was in the Design office.

Q: What was your role at RL?

Patricia: Project Manager for Ralph Lauren Wmns Sportswear from: 1984-1988

Question: What was Ralph like? Where do you think he grabbed inspiration from? Who was his muse, besides his wife, Ricki?

Patricia: Looking back, it was an incredible experience. All before the internet and google! Lots of in person sourcing fabrics, trims, design meetings where Ralph approved everything, and I mean everything! The fittings were in the garment center, at that time it was owned by Biderman. Car services would pick us up at the Design offices 40 West 55th street. Ralph Was inspired by life, by real people and of course all the icons, Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly etc... of course his wife was his best muse!!!! Ralph was very involved and passionate about his business, and the empire he founded and built. Lots of long hours working there and during Fashion Shows it was very hard. Lots of long hours but it was also very exciting.

Then you decided to leave RL and luckily landed at Calvin Klein ( Patricia is pictured below sitting at her desk with a 80’s rolodex)

Q: What was your role at Calvin Klein? What year did you land there, and leave?

Patricia : I left RL after my wedding, about a year after. It was 1988 or 89- I need to look at my paychecks which were paper. No direct deposit then! lol I worked for Calvin in Design. Loved it. It was refreshing because it was a 9-5 job unless the shows were going on. It was an open design office. PR Team was down the hall. Calvin was involved but he made decisions quickly.

Q: How exciting was it to work alongside Zack Carr? What was 1 thing that you learned from him that has stuck with you throughout your career?

Patricia : Zack was so full of life! He was so talented and loved what he did. I learned so much from him. He had a refined sense of style and a great personality. A big laugh and so full of love. He was fun to work with.

Question: What was Calvin like? What was the energy like in the office in the 90s?

Patricia: Calvin was very sophisticated and alluring. His presence was very calm yet energetic. He knew what he wanted from the start. He was enigmatic!

Question : As you got to know them.. where do you think Zack and Calvin grabbed inspiration from? Did they walk the office checking out what employees were wearing?

Patricia: Zack, Calvin were very influential and informed- they loved luxury - a quiet luxury. But also, the audience was certainly “celebrity”- material.

Tonne Goodman (pictured above)

Q: Tonne Goodman, Kelly and Narciso (pictured above), Carolyn Bessette, and Grace Coddington. Did you ever work with them? If so, can you describe them or their style?

Patricia: All of them, just original and different from each other. Grace Coddington was an Artist, so unique. (Zack and Grace pictured below)

Question: What was the best part of working at these iconic brands?

Patricia: Timeless. Legendary Designers. Best part was they were known all over the world!

Q: What would you say was the best part of working alongside these creative’s – Ralph, Calvin and or Zack?

Patricia: The best part was learning from each of them and getting the opportunity and privilege of being part of the design team.

Question: Can you tell me what you see that’s missing in today’s fashion?

Patricia: I think there’s an elegance that was there that’s not the same. That said, the choices of today’s fashion are very different. Much more casual fashion today.

Question: Finally, you left the retail industry, got married, and started a family.. what are you doing today? Are you still drawing, sketching?

Patricia: Had twins in 1993. I left my full-time career in fashion, in 1996. Yes, I freelanced in fashion, always sketching and doing my Art. Today I create whimsical Art and sell my work. I think there’s an elegance that was there that’s not the same. That said, the choices of today’s fashion are very different. Much more casual fashion today.

Zack’s muses…

“Fashion and media are both evolving at breakneck speed, and I am so thrilled—and awed—to be part of that,” says Malle. “I also feel incredibly fortunate to still have Anna just down the hall as my mentor.”

About Malle: Since Malle became the editor of Vogue.com in the fall of 2023, direct traffic to the site has doubled, and Vogue.com has seen double-digit growth across all key metrics—including unique views, time spent, and content output—around major events such as the Met Gala and Vogue World. Malle has been a key player in Vogue’s expansion into new forms of storytelling, launching editor-led newsletters and introducing successful annual tentpoles such as Dogue and the Vogue Vintage Guide.

Dogue: https://www.vogue.com/tag/misc/dogue

Vogue Vintage Guide : https://www.vogue.com/best-vintage-stores-in-the-world

IMO: Vogue needs a re-vamp and Malle needs to do something groundbreaking as Anna first did in 1988 with her first issue. Anna used less well-known models, and mixed inexpensive clothes with high fashion: the first issue where she was in charge, November 1988, featured a 19-year-old Michaela Bercu in a $50 pair of faded jeans and a bejeweled T-shirt by Christian Lacroix worth $10,000, photographed by Peter Lindbergh. It was the first time a Vogue cover model had worn jeans, swapped in at the last minute since the skirt Bercu was originally going to wear did not fit properly. When the printer saw it, they called the magazine's offices, thinking it was the wrong image.

Maybe just maybe Malle needs to get a little bit nostalgic and take us all back to a time where we read a magazine front to back. That and give us good story-telling. I recently took a deep-dive down Vreeland’s time at Harper’s Bazaar and Vogue and just about fell in love with everything she brought to both magazines!

Let’s take a look..

At Harper’s Bazaar, Diana began to write a feature column called “Why Don’t You?” in which she dispensed fashion tips and advice. It became wildly popular, and Diana continued to exert ever more influence at Harper’s Bazaar and the fashion world.

In 1960, JFK became president and Vreeland advised First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy in matters of style - throughout the campaign and helped connect her with fashion designer Oleg Cassini, who became chief designer to the first lady". "I can remember Jackie Kennedy, right after she moved into the White House...It wasn't even like a country club, if you see what I mean." Vreeland occasionally gave Jackie advice about clothing during her husband's administration, and small advice about what to wear on Inauguration Day in 1961.

The choice to unveil the new first family in Bazaar was Jackie's way of saying thank you. "I was furious today when I read Newsweek on how everyone is wondering why we chose Harper's Bazaar," Jackie told Vreeland after the sitting, "and they invent a million reasons and no one says the real one—which is you." It was the beginning of a friendship that would last for nearly three decades.

Diana as Editor in chief at Vogue (1962 – 1971): enjoyed the 60’s because she felt that uniqueness was being celebrated. During her tenure at the magazine, she discovered the sixties "youthquake" star Edie Sedgwick.

Vreeland never had staff meetings, instead she sent her staff memos urging them to be creative. One memo said, "Today let's think pig white! Wouldn't it be wonderful to have stockings that were pig white! The color of baby pigs, not quite white and not quite pink!"

Diana: I published this big fashion slogan: ‘This is the year of do it yourself. Every store in the country telephoned to say, “Look, you must tell people. No one wants to do it themselves—they want direction and to follow a leader!”

Diana notoriously went over budget with each issue. However, she was not someone known to compromise. If she was going to be editor-in-chief at Vogue, she would not skimp on her ideas no matter the cost, manpower, or obscurity.

Diana’s most iconic cover EVER: October 1966 issue of Vogue hits the newsstands. Not because of the featured clothes, but because the iconic magazine had travelled abroad to deliver a photo spread beyond imagination – and the general budget. It was risky business, but to this day it still stands as one of the most iconic editorials not only in the history of Vogue, but in fashion. Let’s look back to the beginning, the vision, and the amazing journey that unfolded when the Vogue team – with Diana Vreeland in front – took off to photograph in the snowy mountains of Japan.

THE VISION: With travelling becoming more and more accessible to the general public, Diana Vreeland had a vision of enticing Vogue’s readers through travel and exploration of a very different world to their own. It had to be about creating dreams and the sense of endless possibilities – not even the sky would be the limit. “What sells is hope,” she said.

This meant finding a way to allure the readers through cinematic imagery and creating a spellbinding story. Vreeland had to travel beyond the borders of America with her fashion team from Vogue in order for that to happen. And who would have to shoot it? No less than the legendary, photographer Richard Avedon, who at that time considered it his first major assignment for Vogue.

THE FASHION SPREAD: On the 15th of October 1966, the Vogue issue hit the newsstands and readers could immerse themselves into a 26 pages fashion spread featuring the model Veruschka in the Japanese snow. For D.V. it was crucial that Veruschka appeared as a heroine and not a victim – she had to stand poised and strong. If she didn’t portray herself as a victor in a photograph, it would be discarded. Travelling abroad to photograph in Japan had cost Conde Nast $1 million, but the turnout sure brought Vreeland’s visions to life. It was a spread that toyed with one’s imagination and made you fantasize about places you did not even knew existed through its storytelling images.

“The Great Fur Caravan. A Fashion Adventure Starring the Girl in the Fabulous Furs Photographed for Vogue in the Strange Secret Snow Country of Japan”

Veruschka went on a transformational journey through the snowy and cold landscape of Japan – in layers and layers of fur. The pictures were mythical, and you could almost feel the cold air and snow blowing in your face as the eyes glanced from one page to another. Veruschka took center stage, although, through her journey she encountered a sumo wrestler – also referred to as “the giant” – and an elder Japanese man dressed in a kimono. She conquered the snowy maintains and took part in rituals and culture. She went from day-dreaming princess to loud and feisty warrior.

In the enchanting storytelling of the girl dressed in furs, the fashion and clothing worn by Veruschka are delegated important roles as well. The furs and accessories become part of the story and Veruschka’s character, and thereby the story is expressed through garments. They become part of the fantasy.

After Vogue, she became the consultant to the Costume Institute of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York in 1971. By 1984, Diana had organized twelve exhibitions.

Images by Richard Avedon: Vogue, October 1966 found on avedonfoundation.org

Diana adored the color red. Red lizard boots, red nails and lips, blue/black hair pulled tight, Diana held court in her legendary all red living room on Park Avenue.

“I wanted it to look like a garden. A garden in Hell.”- Diana Vreeland

Q: What years did you work at Cartier?

Guy: 1987-1998.

Q: How did you meet Carolyn?

It was April 18th 1996 - She came into the store and one of the girls in the boutique greeted her. Carolyn took out a box from her backpack in it a lady’s gold tank Française. She pulled it out and I could see that it was a watch that had not been released yet, so I knew she was someone important. I had just been in Paris talking to the Cartier executives and so I knew it was coming out.

She said it was too flashy for her to wear and that she wanted the simplest silver watch we had. She didn't want a bracelet either. It had to be on a leather strap and it had to be plain. And a silver tank watch was the simplest thing we had at the time. So that is what she picked out.

I put her in my little office off the main showroom. And from that one meeting we became fast friends. I saw her all the time both at work and outside of work. We soon starting meeting for lunch, just the two of us, where we could have a giggle together. Sometimes we’d have lunch at their apartment too on North Moore Street, downtown..

Q: Did she make any other purchases?

Guy: She did. She purchased some pearls. And I believe she was photographed in those pearls. She bought gifts for people all the time, and nice ones, like a watch for Effigenio, who was their much beloved houseman. I seem to recall that she bought a tiny gold ring for Carole Radziwill, it was a simple gold band. I just saw something on TV about that ring with Carole and the psychic Tyler Henry where he did a reading for her and Carolyn came through.

Q: Did she ever buy personalized stationery from you?

Well, that's weird that you should ask, because for a wedding gift, I made them the thank you notes. I have kept the actual engraving plate.

I have her first note that she wrote from that personalized Cartier stationery. I have it because she wrote it to me personally. It was a Thank you note for the stationary. She would end up writing me notes all the time.

Guy: Bunny Melon tried to be a friend, as well as a kind of a mother-in-law figure to Carolyn, since Jackie was already gone. Bunny was best friends with Jackie forever, you know, and they had matching rings from Tiffany. This little X band with precious stones. I remember hearing from Carolyn that Tiffany only made two in that version. One for Bunny and one for Jackie. But Bunny convinced Tiffany to make a third one and gave it to Carolyn as a special gift. I'm sure it was Bunny’s way of making Carolyn feel connected to her, to the past, the future, and to Jackie.

It's an X and some stones X and some stones and an X. It's a band, like a wedding band. And there's only three in the world in that stone combination. Carolyn brought it to me and said, "what do I do? I’m never going to wear this". I can't remember if it fit as it was so many years ago. I have a picture, actually a photocopy of it because she wanted me to redesign it into something simple. I don’t recall if I ever did. I knew the ring before because I remember seeing one on Bunny Mellon. I had a family connection to Mrs. Mellon. She even gifted me some gold and blue enamel Tiffany cufflinks once.

Above: Image of Carolyn’s engagement ring (version of Jackie’s swim ring), and the Tiffany X ring gifted to Carolyn by Bunny Mellon. Designed Jean Schlumberger for Tiffany’s.

Guy: You know that Jackie Kennedy was also my client ,and so was her sister Lee Radziwill. Jackie spoke very quietly and apparently with a slight lisp. I believe she spoke softly to make people draw in closer to her. It worked.

I've heard that. Yes. Have you heard that?

Yes, I have. That was my feeling, having helped her for years.

Jackie once brought a gold Cartier tank watch on a strap in for me to fix.

And I turned it over to capture the serial numbers and she explained to me that it was given to her by Jack when their child Patrick was born. But sadly the baby died three days later.

“I heard about this watch. Is it engraved on the back?” It is. It is engraved with Patrick and a date, as I recall.

You’ll probably have a hard time finding anything about it. I think I'm one of the few people that's ever seen it. I would guess Caroline Kennedy must have it.

Q: Did you ever visit the George office?

Guy: Cartier is on Fifth Avenue and 52nd Street, so it was very close by the George offices. I was in George, like, once a week- usually at lunchtime. Sometimes I was meeting Carolyn and other times I was dropping off something for her. And John was always running around the office, you know, he was very involved in all of that. I don't know if people realize that. The office was always frantic, but it was always full of good energy. I always felt that John found his voice with that magazine. It was uniquely his and his alone. I bet that was a first for him.

Just seems like so long ago, but you know now it seems to be fresh again for some reason. I don't know why.

Maybe with all these books and a movie and everything, the timing is right to tell the real story, from my point of view. Because everybody has their own ideas about who played what part in the whole Bessette-Kennedy saga.

You know something funny, I was in their apartment all the time. They had no shades on their big bedroom windows.

I said to Carolyn, "you two are the most famous people in the world. You're up here on whatever floor it is, and the whole world can look right in". And she said, "you know what? Let them look. I don't care. Let them look. nobody can see in here anyway". I said "have you ever heard of binoculars, honey? I said, "you’re so private, but you have no shades on your bedroom!” I can’t remember if I ever convinced her to put shades up or not!

“I think it's important to get it out there, so people can see that Carolyn and John were really humans, and not just icons.” - Guy Clark

Q: Would Carolyn ever share anything funny about John?

Guy: Well, you know he was a daredevil. And that's apparently what drove Jackie crazy. Jackie hated that he wanted to fly, and I believe that he didn't take a flying lesson until after she died. My mom and I both had homes in Vero Beach, Florida, and that's where John was taking his flying lessons. He never completed those lessons in Vero Beach because his cousin Michael died during a skiing accent and they abruptly left as I recall. I'm not sure where he completed his lessons. Sadly, he never finished his instrument training which would have helped him that day in the fog.

Carolyn was down there in the rented house basically all alone, but down the street from ours, and she was supposed to spend all this time with my mother. They were close because of my friendship with Carolyn. My mother's and stepfather's Christmas photographs were always on their refrigerator in their North Moore apartment. She called my mom her "Vero Beach Nana”. I always wondered what the people thought, after Carolyn and John passed away. when they found those photos of people nobody knew on their refrigerator!

I was walking to Cartier from my apartment on Sutton Place one day for work. I stepped off the curb on 3rd Avenue and 52nd street And John almost ran me over on his bicycle. I got to work and immediately called Carolyn. I said, "your husband almost ran me over on his bike". She said, “Typical, you should have yelled at him". There he was, racing down the street through a red light, probably late. With his suit on and the leg of his pants rolled up, and a helmet on. I was inches from his face. He was just being John, the dare-devil.

John and Carolyn in London, outside The Ivy, circa May 1999

Guy: When they passed, I was in Savannah on an interview for a decorating job. I flew back home on a friend’s jet. I arrived at my apartment and the buzzer rang from the doorman downstairs, and he said, "Richard, blah, blah, blah is here". And I thought, oh, I must have left something on the plane. Maybe Richard my friend's chef is bringing it back to me because he only lives one block away. I opened the door, and there's this big man with a grey beard and I had no idea who he was. I said, "oh, my God. Who are you?" And he said, "I'm Richard and I’m the senior editor of The National Enquirer". And I said, “what”!? He said, "you must know what I'm doing here”. And I said, "is this about Carolyn?"

He said, yes. And for some reason, I said, “Oh, God. Let's get this over with. Come on in” . Now that I think about it, he must have been waiting for me for quite a while since I had been gone for days. So, I invited this strange man into my home, but only after he gave me his business card . So, he came in, and we sat down on the sofas in my living room, he said," listen, I'm going to press with your love affair with Carolyn". I said, "What? I'm a gay man. Look, here's my boyfriend of 9 years". I showed him a picture of us together on the table next to us. He said, "not according to your letters". I said, "what are you talking about?” From his old leather briefcase, he pulled out copies of all the letters I had written over the years to Carolyn, because Carolyn and I wrote little notes and letters to each other all the time. Oh, my God. He had all the letters that I had written to her. And if you didn't know me, you would have thought that we were having this great love affair, which, of course, was not true, and the idea of it is hilarious. I’m not sure how the National Enquirer got a hold of them, but he showed me a fax of two them that were sent right to the Enquirer. I always assumed they came right from Carolyn and John’s apartment. But who would have done that, and why?

So, I had to do some quick thinking to protect the legacy of my friend. I suggested that he wait to run any story about me until after the lawsuit between the Bessette family and the Kennedy’s was settled, as his readers would be more interested in Carolyn’s letters to me, some of which spoke of her fear of John’s flying. I said I would help him with the true story, but I needed editorial control. He agreed. Sometime much later when the lawsuit was settled, Richard called me immediately. I said, “too much time has passed, and nobody cares anymore" and that he could just f@ck off. And so, the story died, which had been my intension all along. That was REAL editorial control!

“I have been through a lot and have suffered a great deal. But I have had lots of happy moments, as well. Every moment one lives is different from the other. The good, the bad, hardship, the joy, the tragedy, love, and happiness are all interwoven into one single, indescribable whole that is called life. You cannot separate the good from the bad. And perhaps there is no need to do so, either.” - Jackie

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